The Chivalry Chronicles
We discuss topics such as Brotherhood, Masculinity, and Fatherhood. A modern manly approach to chivalry.
Or better yet, Guys Stuff that Guys Do, Cuz We're Guys.
The Chivalry Chronicles
Episode 045 - "What does Chivalry look like today?"
DLH, David, and Jaime discuss what Chivalry looks like in Today's age. After meandering through women’s issues and women in the workplace, then discuss the following:
- Chivalry in the work place
- When chivalry goes badd
- When should a chivalrous person stand up for others?
- Feeling guilty for not doing more in today's political climate.
Issue a verdict.
If by some chance, some stroke of luck, or some act of God, you have stumbled upon this broadcast, you are listening to the Chivalry Chronicles with your host, Dr. DLH.
SPEAKER_04:I'm a damn doctor.
SPEAKER_02:David's to not drink during the podcast.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. And me, Jaime. They need to make uh podcast equipment a lot more expensive to get some of these clowns off the air. Gather around as we discuss a modern manly approach to chivalry. So I hope you're ready, because I know we are. So let's get into it. You need some help with that? Come on. That's one beer in the and we're back.
SPEAKER_00:There was Scotch right there.
SPEAKER_03:Oh my god. We're here once again with the Chivalry Chronicles. We have DLH and David. How's it going, gentlemen? Good to see y'all again. I know it's been a while. I wanted to tell the listeners out there we put out a podcast every two weeks. Hit like. You know, and if you don't like it, hit don't like twice. You know, that way we'll really get it. Is there a don't like option? Yeah. Really? Yeah, so thumbs up, thumbs down. Oh, I didn't know that. Hit the thumbs down twice.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, I only look at the thumbs up. If the thumbs down doesn't exist, hit the like button three times, and that that will uh I don't even think you can do that. Yeah, you just no you can't you just keep signs and that that lets us know that you don't like it.
SPEAKER_00:And that's okay. That's okay. That's okay. We'll we'll live with it. Or just leave a comment and we'll interact.
SPEAKER_03:Leave a comment. I know some people have commented, which is cool. We I read them. I try to respond whenever I see it. Also, send us a text. I know some listeners have done that. And buy us a beer, you know, if you want to do that. I know we've gotten some money for some beer. Yep, beer and bourbon. We appreciate it. Thank you to the listeners out there that have sent the stuff. And you you if you would DLH is gonna take a picture of our desk here. I am there's like two bottles.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, that were listener-contributed.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, there's no, no, neither one of these. But this is what we would have bought.
SPEAKER_00:If you come through with a contract, you should oh look at him got you drinking right there.
SPEAKER_03:So today, you know, I figured since we're back, it's the new year. We talk about I know DLH had mentioned that he wants to get back more to chivalry. So DLH, what does chivalry look like today?
SPEAKER_00:Chivalry today is all over the place. What the hell? They cropped us to chivalry everywhere. Well, I mean I I do think that like there's a lot of people who are gonna view chivalry as an antiquated notion. Yes. Right. And it does have but then quietly teach it to their it does have its historical. Do you have do you uh by chance have a historical definition that is brought up and then we can extrapolate that to more modern times?
SPEAKER_03:Well, the one that I have is a medieval code of conduct for knights in Europe, which is gen it's very general, right?
SPEAKER_00:So if we were gonna talk about chivalry in general, then it is the better qualities of I I would say humankind, not even just like men specifically.
SPEAKER_03:But when you are but no, but I think we need to keep it to men because but but men have historically been the ones broaden it, then it loses up.
SPEAKER_00:I think here's what it is you have you have behaviors that are chivalrous, but the men historically have been looked upon as the ones who should be carrying that out and enforcing that amongst each other, right? So when you think about that, there should be some level of integrity, some uh the honesty, the courage, honor, courtesy, judgment. But doing the there's a bunch of virtues that in that, but what did we even what did those mean, right? And it's it's doing what's what's right even when no one's watching. That's your integrity, right? But sticking up for those who who are voiceless or can't stick up for themselves, and then of course, we always put chivalry as in taking care of those who we felt were in our charge, which are generally women and children, right? Right. So those are and the elderly, and the elderly, sure, if you want to put them in. Those are the those are the broad strokes. And uh the thing is that I think in simpler times it might have been a bit easier to define that, and now with uh with our current society being but we have Google now, so we can define it all day. Yeah, but there's a lot of minutiae in every single area, right? So what does that look like?
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_00:So so you then you're you're saying that in today's society we're defining chivalry different in actions or no subset or what no, I think that I think the definitions uh broadly remains the same. It's just it starts to look a little different because society and the world has evolved.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, well, we need to define it, then let's define it. I don't based on this topic.
SPEAKER_00:You know, we but we we're doing that now because the the virtues that you brought up, right? Which are some of them in the in the night like the nightly codes, right? You're when you're looking at all of those things of valor, honor, courage, all of those things, which in themselves are sort of broader terms. I think I think it it brings into mind what we're talking about, right? Loyalty, honor, loyalty, all the all those things that are that are the higher virtue, the things that people in general should aspire to and look up to. But what they looked like back in the 1500s is different than what it looks like now. Not altogether different, but when you are looking out for women and children now, the some of the optics are a little different now than they were back then. I think that there was a little simpler because women back then maybe were held down to a you're you're in the house, you're you know, and all I gotta do is protect the house, protect the children, right? And like all of that stuff. But now protection for that means a little more than that, in my view. I think that when women want to do more in the workplace and they want equal pay and they want all of those things, I do believe it is up to us to be able to speak on their behalf and say stop holding them back just because they're a woman. You should be rating their skill like you would any person and pay them accordingly, right?
SPEAKER_03:I think the some of the issues that I'm not speaking on women's issues because you know, but I'm gonna speak on women's issues. All right, glad to hear that. I think I think one of the issues that I've I've noticed um as somebody that's worked, I think, 26 years now in engineering world, which is more is predominantly male. So what I think with most women that are in the engineering community, what they've what they run into, and it probably it's probably all women, but I'm talking about these women, is when they get married and then they have a kid, right? So they usually take off six months, maybe a year, maybe longer. And so I think that impedes their progress, right? While you're at home because you chose that, you're in your family, made that decision, nobody told you to stay home, right? You made that decision. I know my wife did. Your counterpart that came in at the same year, they're continually working and moving ahead. And so I think that it's inherent to being a woman, right? If you want to have kids, like you want to also fulfill that role of staying home at least for the first year or so. So I think that kind of holds them back, and it it's a it's an issue, but I I don't know what the answer is, right? Like, what do you do? If they're both the same age, the same qualifications, but the male has four or five years more experience and the female has three years. You what I'm saying? Like, who does the job go to?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, but there's a but there's an inherent inequity in all of that system anyway, with the Family Medical Leave Act, right? Like women, I don't I I I don't know, I personally don't know any woman who has decided once having a kid to just take six months or a year off. You haven't? No, because well they have to take at least six weeks off. But six weeks, that's different than six months or a year. No, because that's all your job pays you, and your job and your job pays you only so far, and then after a certain amount of time, when you go beyond that, they don't even guarantee your job. Right. Right. And so for those who have to come back into the working field, you don't have the luxury of six months to a year unless your family is in a situation where that's a a specific choice.
SPEAKER_03:My wife was out for about a year.
SPEAKER_00:Yes. Now, and and then when so when this came up too, for us when we had my son, who's now 14, right? But when we were when my wife and I were both working, she made more money than me. And we both we both took leave and she stayed as out as long as she could, and then I stayed out as long as I could. And then when it came time, it made the most sense for her to go back to work and for me to stay at home. So I did the stay-at-home parent thing because it it just made more sense for us than what we wanted for our family.
SPEAKER_03:It's whoever makes the most money.
SPEAKER_00:Exactly. That's what makes sense, right? Because if we could have both gone back to work, we could have both gone back to work, but if we had done that, also it's like now making more money, and we were in New York City at the time. So it's like going to work and spending all those hours at work to pay a large portion of that salary for childcare.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, yeah, childcare is ridiculous. It was ridiculous when our kids were baby.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, there's there's there's quite a few people that I I know opted to, hey, I'm just not gonna work because I'm gonna be giving$800 a month or a thousand dollars or whatever to child care, and I'm barely making a couple hundred more dollars. Yes, exactly.
SPEAKER_00:And then so it winds up making more sense for me to be the one to raise our kids, right? And that's why it it it made sense there. But yeah, I I I do think that there's much more that needs to be done in that area. I think largely because when women take this break, whether it would be their six weeks or six months, it's not like they lose the skill or the ability to do the job. It's more that the job is willing to forego them as employees, right? That that makes them not readily able to just come back to work. Right. If if we had a better system, I think, in America that valued those workers and said, we're gonna let you take this time in order to do what you need to do for your family and bond, because I need you to come back fully prepared mentally to do that. Right. And so if it requires you to have six months instead of six weeks, then uh whatever the system is for maybe a slight reduction of pay or whatever, but your job is secure.
SPEAKER_03:But even if we had the best system ever, I don't think it fixes the issue of you losing time at work and that other person that came at the same level only goes further.
SPEAKER_00:No, I think it does, I think it does largely because it it I think that when you have experienced being a stay-at-home parent, it better informs the uphill battle of getting back. It's harder than you think, right? What do you mean? Like like when you take a break, you you have your job, you're doing your job, and then you have to take a break because of the birth of your child, right? And then and then you're out for a little while, and then your pay ends, but then you have some additional leave that you can take that you have to decide whether it's worth it or not, or whatever, because your job is no longer guaranteed. And then if you go and you lose your job because your family situation is such that you can't go back at the moment, as soon as you take that leave, anywhere that you apply to afterwards where they're like, What's up with this gap? Oh no, but you're a deficit.
SPEAKER_03:I'm not disagreeing with that. I'm just saying, like, it doesn't fix the issue that you're gonna get left behind because you took the day the that time off. Yeah, and and and you know what I'm saying. But that's why. How do you fix it? No, no, that's what I'm saying. Even if you had the best that's what it doesn't fix it.
SPEAKER_02:Because now here here's one thing. I I don't even know what the stats or anything, because I do know that over in Europe, there's several European countries where they do have six months or a full year leave. Yeah, and they offer it to both mother and father. And then they come back to work. And then they come back. But what I don't know is if they're doing that, if within their workplace, I like I've never looked at that side of it. Yeah, like are they falling behind? So if the mother over in, let's say Sweden, for example, takes the full six months or a year, whichever one that they offer, comes back, if she gets left behind, like we do see here in the US.
SPEAKER_00:I don't think it I don't know if it does or doesn't I mean to to my knowledge of the stats, the people that allow that, like, and this is mostly European countries that do this, they allow you to take your six months to a year. You come back into your job, and even if the workplace required the promotion of someone that took place while you were gone, you understand that that's a kind of an acceptable hit. I wasn't there, but my job is guaranteed. Those people come back happier because they feel seen, valued, and not in an immediate deficit by coming back to work. Totally separate topic than European system. No, no, no.
SPEAKER_03:I'm saying it's a it's a separate topic, period. What I was saying is like there's nothing that fixes them falling behind because they've had one kid, then they had another kid, then they had another kid.
SPEAKER_00:And he means fall falling behind within the workplace within the work, within their stack your natural progression of it does put you further behind when you lose your job altogether. Yeah, because then you have to apply somewhere and you're immediately in a deficit. Absolutely. So it does set you, it does set you a little further behind. Yes.
SPEAKER_03:So we were talking about chivalry.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:So okay, let's get back to that.
SPEAKER_00:How would chivalry apply here?
SPEAKER_03:Well, that's the thing. There it doesn't fix it. Like you're not gonna take the promotion because you were there and the other person wasn't.
SPEAKER_00:I'm not saying don't take the promotion, but good but good leaders. Chivalry doesn't No, but good leaders can take a promotion and still advocate for those who are subordinates.
SPEAKER_03:If you're here.
SPEAKER_00:And then they can still advocate for their subordinates. You can. And especially if you take the promotion and you understand that this is an issue, then when you're in a position of power, make change.
SPEAKER_03:But there's nothing to fix it.
SPEAKER_00:I disagree. I think that there are things because you're if anybody, if you were going to do something as an independent company, who's gonna know most of that information? It's gonna be the mother side.
SPEAKER_03:But how do you fix it?
SPEAKER_00:It depends on the company. It depends on our federal rules and what you're trying to invoke.
SPEAKER_03:If they fall behind, they fall behind. They have to now double time it to get to where they were before. Like, even if you took off, let's say I take off and not even that. So at when I first started working, right? I designed, that's all I did for, I don't know, 15, 20 years. Then you become a project manager, you do less design. Then you become a higher up, you do even less of that, like the grunt work and all that stuff. So now, like, let's say tomorrow we lose my whole staff and I have to start, you know, creating plans. Even I would have a little bit of, you know, not a hard time, but it would take me a while to get back in the groove of cranking work out, like the actual work that gets done. That's and that's me still being in the business. Yes. I'm saying like this person is off for a year, like it's like I don't know how to fix that. So I I and and this has nothing to do with chivalry. Well, that's what I was gonna say.
SPEAKER_02:I I was gonna say, dude, I feel like I need to hit the rewind button because like why are we drifting off? Because as that that's a company and a society. Well, not that society doesn't impact chivalry, but how does it be? There is a there is a lot of minute. There's a light, there's a light tie-in there.
SPEAKER_00:There is a light, there's a lot of minutiae in there. What I will what I will say is if we get back out of the minutiae and go back into the broad stroke, right? What I'm saying is that we we understand that there is an inequity there that could probably be made more equitable. Okay, and and I think that in the shit in the chivalry vein, so let's go back. We should we should be gonna go back. We should be willing to advocate for what we think is fair. Like if we were the ones that were dealing with that, what would we are the ones that are dealing with that? No, no, no. I'm talking about as men because we are like men that that continue and don't have men in general are not the ones who are the stay-at-home parent. We're not the ones who take the kids. No, no, but we're we're dealing with it. Right, but men that are in the positions of power, and then the women that have to take the time off in order to have the kid and do their things, and then the men are usually like, okay, well, you're out, so I'm not concerned with you. And then and then things just move on. Yeah, and we know that if it was us that was in there, men would fix the problem if we had to take it the time off. If men were required to take the time off and didn't want to take the hit professionally, we would absolutely come up with a way to not do so.
SPEAKER_03:I don't know how to fix it.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, that absolutely and whatever. So if we're not in the minutia, what I'm saying is that for those of us who pay attention, we know that there is not, this is not equitable, and that we should be, even if we don't absolutely know the answer now, we should be seeking one. That would be chivalrous.
SPEAKER_03:That would be what I'm saying is like you'd have to spend a shitload of time and resources to find out.
SPEAKER_00:Well, chivalry doesn't come cheap, man.
SPEAKER_03:And I don't have the time or resources. So let's go back. What is chivalry? It does. It all has limits. It all has limits. Like, I'm not gonna I first of all, I mean, we've had wait, you were going back.
SPEAKER_00:You just did the time back thing.
SPEAKER_03:No, no, I'm just saying we've had we've had female employees.
SPEAKER_00:Now you're back in the future. Where's the other button that goes Okay, let's go back. Let's go back.
SPEAKER_03:All right, let's talk about chivalry in today's world. Is there a time when when you know how I think it was Chris Rock the head, you know, when when he got slapped at the when keeping when keeping it real, when keeping it real goes bad? Is there a time when you know being chivalrous went bad to in y'all because I got a story to tell y'all, and this is when being chivorous went bad, right? Or or went awry.
SPEAKER_00:Are you gonna talk about the holding the door open situation?
SPEAKER_03:Here's the deal. So I'm going into the office, right, early in the morning, and there's you know, if you look at a the front of any building, there's on this building, there's two doors. There's one right in front of me and one 90 degrees from me, right? So there's another person coming through the other door, and I was coming through my door, and it was a lady, older lady, and she had a bin. Like one of those, you know, seven dollar yellow and black bins, you know, they're not too big, but they're pretty sizable. And she had that plus a cake, right? And me, I was like, you know what? You know, I kind of just double-timed it, and and she opened the door, like she before I even got there, she opened the door, and I was like, okay, well, then I'm gonna go through my door. And so we get in there, get in, and she you can tell she's not struggling, struggling, but you know, it's carrying those two things are just cumbersome. And so I said, you know, do you need some help? You know, we're we're going up the elevator, like she's like, No, I got it. I was like, okay. I said, Are you sure? I was like, because I mean, if you're going to you know, floor three, uh, that's where I'm going. She's like, no, I got it. I tell this to my husband all the time. I was in the army, I did this, I did that, you know, I don't, I'm good. And I was like, well, fucking now. I was like, okay, well, cool. You know, and it's like, I think part of chivalry is also if it's received in a in a you know, I guess in a well good manner, maybe. Cause because that because I was like, okay, cool, I just thought I'd offer, you know, I didn't want to like seem like an ass, you know, like that. If she's going, man, that's where's chivalry gone?
SPEAKER_02:You know, like in even if it was a guy that I would have I would have offered guy help too. Yeah, if he looks like he's struggling or whatever.
SPEAKER_03:Because it's chivalry is not just for women, it's for anyone.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and and and now, like, maybe a different approach to that is in how you ask, like, hey, do you need help? No, she doesn't need help. Yeah, but would you like help? If or or or something like, is it okay if I help you? Mm-hmm. That kind of thing. I mean, I don't think it matters.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I feel like that's a bit too semantic. I I think that the overall sentiment is that you were willing to help, right? And I I don't know.
SPEAKER_03:No, no, I fulfilled my my duty. Exactly.
SPEAKER_00:So I don't know that there was exactly Boy Scout. I got my pet. And maybe maybe you didn't maybe you didn't appreciate like. her level of response but but your your job was done at that point.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah no I I threw my hands up was like okay.
SPEAKER_00:So I'm not sure I'm not sure that that was necessarily backlash. I think if you didn't like her response and I'm okay fine. Well you know but they didn't she beat the hell out of them later no no no you know when the when the elevator doors open I ran out and pushed her and it's you know but I think chivalrous I think it's important for us when we go when we go through our day to acknowledge these things where we can be shoveless where we could be chivalrous.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah no I mean I think it it what is the story I I don't I'm not I'm not religious but it says you know when when you ask to be brave they don't automatically make you brave they give you opportunities to be brave.
SPEAKER_00:Right. But I mean but even when you because I have heard a story before of somebody that tried to hold a door open for and and this was a a woman too and and that this woman was like oh what do you think I can't open my own doors and it was about no not you know and it was it was just more about the I guess the feminist element of this and and I can do this for myself and whatever but I think that those are two separate issues right like I can still offer chivalry you don't have to take it you're not required to take it. Yes and if you feel that there that I was trying to slight you because you happen to be female no that was not at all it and and and I could just tell you that too that's not at all why I did that it would have anybody who's coming behind me. It's not because it was you it's because it was a person. Yeah and then I was just offering to be nice.
SPEAKER_03:I think I think there's there's I mean I don't know why it always happens going in my office but there's this other gentleman that was in one of those little I think it's called Rascals. I don't know but they're the little cars like the you know people that are can't really walk that well it has a little four wheels it looks like oh like a scooter yeah like a little scooter and he was trying to get in the door but in those scooters you you can't reach you can't it's it's hard and you know he's like oh they didn't make these 88 and I was like well I said no they did but you you have to go down the building and over that way. I said that's where the the sliding doors open and he's like oh okay I didn't know it's like okay I was like but do you I mean I can get the door for you he's like yeah you know that that's cool. And then and then I just felt almost obligated to like follow him to the elevator click the elevator make sure he got in and then make sure he got you know it's just kind of like I can't just in the door and then like ah you're on your own that's right you're on your own I did my job. Yeah so that's that's something that that that I think that was a better experience for me but you know I think sometimes it's you you they kind of they're kind of looking at you right like are you gonna help? You're like I'm getting there bro like I I saw you like I'm I'm gonna come help you. Somebody calm down but it it's just one of those things like you feel then obligated to make sure they get to their destination.
SPEAKER_02:Well you should be if you're if you are a chivalrous person. Right. Yeah I I I I think the the key point to when you look at the definition it's essentially be there for the week. For the week?
SPEAKER_01:No I don't know about the week that's a long time dog no uh maybe a readiness let me a readiness let's give you an opportunity to take a week back.
SPEAKER_02:It's a readiness to help the weak yeah yeah you're calling women weak yeah yes I just gave you a second chance nothing like that I just gave you a second chance to be weak E-A-K that's not that's not what that is so what does chivalry look like today like I mean I know we all have we all have kids right is this something that you actively teach your kids about opening doors about you know helping people is that what you do yes David yeah absolutely have they been like why like but why not not not not my son yeah I don't he really has I'm even thinking whenever he was little just he didn't ever really question like why am I doing that and he you know he'll he'll do stuff like open doors and and things like that and even if it's his positioning you know whenever you're in the way essentially you're opening the door but you're in the way I mean he he'll he'll still he you know he does that so it's just kind of just something maybe he saw a bit of what I was doing and what others were doing and thankfully it it's in that positive sense yeah and I think well DLH you you have a boy and a girl did you push it more on one than the other or did you do it equally like yeah equally yeah like uh it's it's I I mean for me it's more uh be aware of your surroundings right and if you're in a position to help then help yeah so and then and and it could be as simple as that like you're just opening a door for somebody who's immediately behind right and I and I think uh in a New York City mindset you don't need to hold the door open for somebody who's like two minutes back that you think is walking in the direction like you're okay to leave.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah but if there's somebody immediately behind you then you know then you hold the door and then you go through but aware of your surroundings because maybe you do see somebody struggling with two big boxes and a cake and you offer to assist. They're like no I was an army if you can't whatever whatever but maybe they take it right that shit out there.
SPEAKER_02:Whatever that is but so what do you what do you guys think more on on a deeper level like obviously we've we've described opening doors but how about standing up for something or someone like what what what should standing up to who the government well how how however like let let's let's let's take it a little bit deeper in in that sense and and obviously what comes to mind to me now is everything that you hear and see with ICE and and enforcement that's kind of become exactly I like my drinks neat sir but I mean at what point should a chivalrous person get up off the couch or take an action and what like what what what what should be that that threshold if you're a chivalrous person like what's that defining line or or not and maybe maybe it's not specific to this that that incident right but I mean so how do you define that or well first is I guess you gotta figure out what can you do right the specific events that you're talking about is the whole other fucking state you know I just don't know what you can do in Texas San Antonio Texas you know x x number of miles away from where that's happening now there's stuff that's that stuff's happening here but what can you do?
SPEAKER_03:Like what what what are you gonna do? You know what I'm saying? Like what are your avenues to be able to say hey at least I did something I mean do you get aware I mean like try to get awareness out there like you know tell about tell people about their rights or do you you know post them on your social media page which is I mean I think that's the extent that I do is just like retweet stories retweet articles about this is what's happening but really I mean what have I done I've not done well I much I you know I I I personally get like a a sense of guilt.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah absolutely because it's like how do you remedy that yeah no I I I get that but I I I also think and this is this is where the guilt sets in it's like am I really taking the time to figure out yeah what I can or should do right because no we we like to bitch about it yeah no exactly so so for example when I went to go pick up my son from from school yesterday one of the high schools that I passed I noticed the normal route that I take it basically was telling me to do a U-turn and go a different route and I'm like well why this is this is always always the route that works yeah well I got up close I decided like not to believe the GPS and at least go take a look well it was the the reason is because traffic was essentially at a standstill because some high school kids participated in in a walkout. Roosevelt no this was uh it would have been Stevens high school Stevens High School okay uh there but there was there was kids that had signs and they were they were just walking and then there was there was cars that had signs too and yeah they just kind of were impeding traffic in a bit but I was like dang would if if I was to hit the rewind button uh or if if I was a high schooler today would have I would would have I been out there yes or would I have not you know I would have well see I I I because I did in high school well I I I think I would right and I and but it's also like if these kids are willing to do it why am I not doing it these kids with less power or less perceived power yeah even though it's more perceived because they're the ones there if they were to vote like if they're old enough to vote I think they could shift everything.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah well you know what I'm saying like well but yes I see what you're saying and then the other thing too and and this was just more of not being aware that stuff was happening yesterday but then in my social media feeds I saw that San Antonio had a had a big gathering downtown and it was like dang David why why couldn't you weren't you up there David why why am I not there or why didn't I I'll I'll text you all the information next time you go well i it it that those kinds of things I was in California this week too and in California I saw people just over a bridge with signs and people were honking yeah I honk but come on it's like David I need to do something like so in high school I would I would do marches and stuff like that we we'd all it seemed like we're marching about everything in fucking high school in college we did the same thing at AM I think we went to Austin and joined their march it was you know and and I think it's it's terrible and I don't know if it's terrible to say but I think it's like a young person's game but anybody can do it right and I know there was the Martin Luther King march last week because it was Martin Luther King day or whatever. And a lot of some some of our brothers were were doing it and I thought that's great. That's awesome I've never done it at least not as an full-fledged graduated from college adult. I think I did it more as a as an undergrad than anything you know what I'm saying and and what does it do?
SPEAKER_02:I don't know it shows that people are pissed off I don't know I think when you get to a certain age it's it just becomes like what difference does it make and that's the problem with it well yeah yeah that's that's that's where the sad it it just makes you I know I mean maybe it's because all in all you you you think like is me retweeting it like I I saw a post uh uh from a person that I that I know of I don't necessarily know him but it was like if if we're about this why are we not doing anything about it right now then I I I took I took that and it just kind of put me in a deep thought mainly because I was I started a long drive after that but it was me wanting to tell him making a statement is not necessarily doing anything like if we're doing something instead of saying why are we not making a statement it should be that person saying hey I'm doing XYZ who's coming with me that to me moves the needle.
SPEAKER_03:It's almost like we we've had we've had uh people come to us in the alumni association oh you guys should be doing this oh yeah you guys should be hey that's great we don't but we don't need consultants right now and and we need you to head it up yeah if they took the baton and said hey I'm doing this who wants to join me now the now something moves right I don't know man it's such a it's such a hard question to answer especially being older now I just I don't know if I even want to get involved and I I feel like I should because I think it affects me and people that look like me and I worry about my parents you know I worry about my family I just haven't taken the time to figure out what I can really do about it.
SPEAKER_02:And so like mostly everyone else I'm like I'll I'll retweet yeah trying to put blind and I mean to a degree we we we almost put blinders on it and like like I said it it I I know for for me like I said it it it makes me feel like a inner guilt. Oh no what the hell are you doing David?
SPEAKER_03:Like if this is not important to you then what what really is because I look at people that that are out there doing stuff and I'm like man more power to you. You're doing the Lord's work.
SPEAKER_02:You know what I'm saying but you've you've been quiet so far what what's your take or thoughts?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah I've been trying to keep it pretty much at bay for the I guess the sake of the podcast why because I I what do you mean because my doctorate is in in criminal justice and I have all the thoughts well I think we're talking about the work not the thoughts I well that the that's the thing is we we get so inundated by right now in in this particular climate right now we get so many people that have their political identity is overweighing what is right versus what is wrong. Their integrity is being compromised by for the sake of agreeing one party or the other and there's so many people that are willing to overlook whatever the minutiae of what's going on now simply for the sake of remaining in line with your party yeah tribalism. Now when we think of this is I think this is worse than tribalism here. This is cultish. Yeah no definitely cultish cultish behavior if we were really going to think about this sort of stuff we we should understand that in the United States of America we are governed by our constitution when we find anyone when we find anyone who is in violation of our constitutional rights we should all be aware and alarmed at that right and it's one thing to have them do that but then to have them do that have it be okay to have them get away with it have them get away with it again have them get away with it again and I don't care who you think I'm talking about or whatever it is it really doesn't even matter because for some it may bring your attention to national politics for some it may bring attention to your local politics because all of it is true right now. Yeah right when there is a violation to your constitutional rights your state rights your municipal rights those are those are things that automatically should make you get up and want to do something right because when you start to think about that even if it doesn't impact you immediately right now what if it does and no one comes to your aid right because it's not at their doorstep it's at yours. Right and they don't care. They don't care and you think at this point everyone should care because it's impacting me specifically that's what those people are going through right now. And for a lot of us that are not doing what we could be doing simply because it's not at our doorstep is insufficient. We should be doing more. Yeah now for some of us when these things are happening over in Minneapolis there's not a whole lot that we can do in a legislative realm from Texas. But if we make it known that we are highly against that sort of stuff whether it be social media or through whatever channels that you talk to people and especially if you have any of the people who try to bolster or argue for the injustices that are taking place then I'm not even asking you to make a political argument. It is a violation of constitutional rights. Everyone should be on the side of constitutional rights. Yeah but I think we agree on that I think but what David's saying is that there's a lot of people that don't even if we all agree on that there's a there's a whole segment but David like what are you doing that's the thing now if it comes to if it comes to Texas because we know that Governor Abbott has signed a uh numerous things here that are controversial right yeah are you getting out are you getting out to protest? Are you do like social media? Yes that's convenient to it's the easiest way to do things but is there are there any protests that are taking place in your area and are you going to those protests maybe if you cannot do that.
SPEAKER_03:No but but anyone can look that up I think the what David's question is like what are you specifically doing?
SPEAKER_02:Me as an individual saying I feel guilty for not doing that and I agree I feel the same way you're telling us what you should do and what we need to do more but what are you doing well that would be that would be the but if we but if we put it on the individual I can't ask you to not attend work that is going to be in going and and that's that's why I limited it to me and my yeah so what are you doing to do more to because because like that's that's why I was saying I feel guilty because I see and know the things that you're talking about to a degree yeah but why why am I not turning that page and and doing something like if what I did in your realm though if I'm a chivalrous person or I'd I would like to think that right when when when is that when does that trigger need to and not from a gun I'm talking about when does that trigger you to to step forward as a chivalrous knight there for the week like wait when does that click on I mean I I think the obvious the obvious things is somebody breaks in your house you gotta you gotta step up I mean castle doctrine sir castle doctrine just look it up which is a bad situation but that's a conversation for another time but I I think that when you are looking in your in your particular realm right as a citizen but with a job and a family and whatever there's only so much time that you can dedicate to certain things and especially if you have any sort of limitations.
SPEAKER_00:I happen to be in the realm of criminal justice. So when I do things and I don't know whether I'm teaching it in the classroom or whether I am doing something on social media or whether I am incorporating it into one of the publications that I'm submitting to be written somewhere, right? Like I am hoping to impact change. All of the things that I do may not be directly visible because you may not see until I reach that particular point that I am on or striving to be on an advisory board for the city that I am striving to be on a particular board that handles whatever your issue is, right? Like in in my area of of research and trying to be on the board of directors for you know I don't know your your local rape prices center something like that right if you're somebody who's going to do some more of these immigration rights then maybe that's your thing is trying to find out for your city what is your possibility of serving on an advisory board on your city level which I don't know if a lot of people know that you can look that up per your city and then see where the openings are and you can apply to be on an advisory board. Citizen action advisory board like they it may go by various names but essentially that's it is that the board is made up by citizens. Are you on some advisory board not yet I have applied to be on them I just have to I have to wait until somebody contacts me and decides that I can be on that but I have applied to be on boards and and these boards are for for citizen like policy and then also for police oversight so I I have applied to several boards I have also applied to be on a rape crisis board a what I am a what board rape crisis center. Oh rape crisis okay we have there's a Bear County rape crisis center here and I'm and I'm applying to be on that board as well but in addition to those you know I mean this is me I can't I I don't have the same level of expectation for you because you're well no and I'm not I'm not saying to do that. I I I guess kind of going to the specific topic is if you're a chivalrous person or someone who subscribes to that what what are the defining do what's in your means do what's in your means okay because I because I understand that there's some people who maybe you're on your grind and you have to go Go to work every day because you're in a trade. You just you don't have the luxury of taking time off. Maybe you can't do that, right? But you can but you can make your feelings known or the position unknown on social media. And maybe that's the extent of what you can do, then do that. Right? If you do have the ability to take some time off or can and make one of those, you know, protests that are taking place, then do that. Uh but you're doing whatever you think you can in that area to make sure that you are advocating for those who can't advocate for themselves. I think that that's what's important. I I I feel the same. I feel I feel bad all the time about this stuff. But I have to, I'm also at the mercy of who will, like all the gatekeepers along the way, who's gonna let me on the board? Who is going to publish the things that I am either in an op-ed piece or a peer-reviewed, who's going to publish those things? And then and and as I go into like the the teaching forum and all that stuff, like all of this pressure I take with me.
SPEAKER_03:Did you feel because we have this podcast, and I mean it's not like we have a shitload of listeners, right? We have we love all our listeners. We do. They're all valuable, yeah. And I'm trying to get my mom to listen. I'm just kidding. But do you feel like because sometimes I d I do think it's like, hey, these guys are in San Antonio, right? There's stuff that's going on all over the all over the country. Why haven't they said anything? Did you I mean we specifically not talked about politics? Why do you think we've done that? I mean, why do you think we've not touched it?
SPEAKER_00:You mean as a podcast?
SPEAKER_03:As a podcast.
SPEAKER_00:Well, for cancel culture. That's the way about cancel culture. We do. We do. We all do in to some regard. Yeah, we all care about that.
SPEAKER_02:I I you know, I think uh most most people try to avoid clock conflict to a degree. Right um, so do we do we want an avalanche of people saying, well, you you you guys are just uh this and that, and basically make it political whenever we want it to be more broadened beyond you know the stuff stuff that men face.
SPEAKER_03:And I think it's I I think it does get roped into chivalry. I I do too.
SPEAKER_00:I guess to because it's part of our everyday reality.
SPEAKER_03:And there there is a point in all men's lives where you feel like, man, I I have to do something. And and part of it is you know, if you don't do it, then you feel that guilt. Because you know what you need to do. Like most of us have that inner, you know, that that that inner being that's just like you gotta say something, you gotta do something. And I unfortunately get into a lot of discussions with brothers, with people that I meet, because I can I can uh let stuff go for the most part, right? But but when you say something that's just inaccurate, then I have to say something, right? And it and it's a problem sometimes because you're like, man, I don't even want to discuss this, but that's not accurate, right?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I run into the same thing with with with work stuff. Like I don't venture into politics with with work stuff, but there will be times where a client or somebody is assuming I'm something and they're saying stuff, and then it's like they Right, David, right? You agree with me, David. Yeah, so as soon as they do, and then I tell them no, like the the other thing I'm not gonna do is I'm not gonna just fold or conform. And uh you remember when we went to the the cigar place, the guy at at Finks that sat down next to us. Yeah, at first he was going in one direction, and then it was like he heard he heard the pushback, and then all of a sudden he was oh yeah, that's blah blah blah.
SPEAKER_00:Course corrected, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And I I'm I'm not that guy whenever to me it's something of value or of importance. Yeah, like uh yeah, you can say that, haha, it's that's funny. Go ahead. But if you're gonna ask me for my side of it, yeah, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna tell you something just so you hear what you want.
SPEAKER_03:No, absolutely. I think I'm kind of the same way, and and if you want to have a discussion about it, I'm I'm all good to have a discussion about it. The moment that you start infusing other things, inaccuracies, like your own, like this is what it should be, that then I I do have to push back, and and that's with everything. That's with sports, right? That's with you know, when you get I, you know, the cowboys suck, and I was like, okay, like what do you mean? Like explain, you know what I'm saying? Like, okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:But this is this is more important.
SPEAKER_03:No, I'm saying, no, but I'm just using that as an example. Like, when you start just you know, generalities, okay. I go, but when you say something that's just completely inaccurate, there's no factual basis to it, there's nothing, there's no events that lead you to believe that. Like, then I have to I have to speak up. Something that is is kind of along the same lines that affected San Antonio, and I know it caught my eye because I'm a civil, we do you know, streets and stuff like that is the crosswalks here in San Antonio. Like the fact that they you know the rainbow crosswalk.
SPEAKER_00:Rainbow crosswalk, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:I was like when I looked at it, I just looked at it as a you know, cost benefit, not benefit analysis. Like it that it's already done. You're gonna spend money, and who's spending that money? Is the city paying for it? Yes, is textile paying for it? Is the government paying for it to remove that? Yes, because that's a cost. So who's paying for it? The city. The city is, right? Because that's what I read. Yes, and I was like, you should pay for it. If the federal government has an issue, they should pay for it.
SPEAKER_00:Well, and the thing is too that the the the money that was raised in order to do the crosswalks was not the city, it was raised by another agency. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_03:Do we reimburse that city now for erasing that agency for yeah, just as an engineer, because we do we we we do plans for stuff like that, and we do cost analysis, like we do we provide a cost estimate, a probable cost estimate. And I was like, my first thought was like, who's paying for this? Because this is bullshit. If you're telling me I have to remove it on my dime, you know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_00:Like, that's a problem. Yeah, I think they're they're aside from aside from who gives them. Yeah, but their potential fixes because they now put the rainbow along the sidewalk.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, well, but that was a great fix, but now I don't know if you saw, but this this week, now that it's completely removed, there was a wreck. There was a wreck. There was a wreck. Yeah, one of the brothers posted that. There was a wreck on that street.
SPEAKER_03:It's so it's so backwards. Like, I'm like, why are we why are we doing that along the same lines in Philadelphia? Taking down, was it Philadelphia? They they took down all those signs for uh it was like slavery and uh black history. Oh, yes, right, right. Stupid, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, they're gonna take down the liberty bill for sitting down cracking.
SPEAKER_03:What did SNL's SNL's president said, you know, like big big alphabet, uh the the Statue of Liberty?
SPEAKER_00:You know, I I think that's the challenge I would put out to uh out to people, like regardless of your of your political stance, I mean get out of the freaking political realm and just think about what's right versus what's wrong. History is history. We cannot delete that. No, right? You can do your best, I guess, to try and hinder uh people learning about it, but history is history.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, the secret gets out, just like with your your own family, you know, Thea may not have told you what she did back in the day, but then all it's got. It's gonna be known.
SPEAKER_00:It's somebody knows that the secret gets out, and then it's like, oh Thea, and we should be with those, these are things that we should be advocating for, right? Like all the things that are are so so what are we advocating for? Well, I think that sh uh I think essentially what we're saying for this particular instance is that chivalry is it it has the potential to be far reaching, right? You just have to know what your potential is for standing up for what's right. Right, yeah. Um, and and uh you know, uh I think that to a large degree, if you can do it without great personal expense, then great. But at some point, when things get worse, you're gonna have to find some level of acceptable personal expense because you would expect this of others if this was at your doorstep, right? Do what's right, yeah, stand up for what's right.
SPEAKER_03:And if you don't know what that is, uh you can email dlh at David Lopez.
SPEAKER_00:Happy to tell you.
SPEAKER_03:No, I I I agree. Like there's that and I think that's that's part of where chivalry comes in. That's part of us with our sacraments, with our fraternity. You you feel you feel you know what's right, right? And and part of it is because we have kids, we've had those discussions with them. I had that discussion before you know my son went off to college, before my daughter went off to college about how to comport yourself, how what happens in this situation, you know, especially with law enforcement, especially with because you know, it's like you're not always gonna be there. Yeah, it sucks that oh man, I I really hate going on social media, specifically Facebook. Facebook is the fucking worst. It's a toxic environment, it's terrible. I kind of spend most of my time on Twitter only because I get what I get. Like I get the people I follow, you know, and they provide me the information that I need. It's mostly sports, but I do get a lot of politics stuff in it. My whole avenue is like transparency, right? It's it's this information. Not a lot of people know this information. I'm gonna spread that information, you know. And if I and I am I try to be really good about kind of is it a valid source? Is this something that's true? Is this and then I retweet it or or whatever I do. No, I don't, I haven't been on a march since freaking I was probably in my early 20s. But if you feel you have to do that, do it. Like if my son was like, I'm gonna go on this march, I'd be like, be careful. Cause you know, it I mean he's he's not that brown, he's not as brown as I am.
SPEAKER_00:But it don't matter. But see that the fact that that has to even come up as well. No, it is terrible. So are you too brown? Are you too brown to attend I am to attend a protest somewhere because ice may be there waiting?
SPEAKER_03:I know I know a friend of mine jokes with me all the time. Anytime I piss him up, he's like, Man, I'm calling ice on you. And I'm like, don't do it, dog, because they they will show up.
SPEAKER_00:It's just that like this, I think chivalry shows up in many different ways, right? Like I I every time bills come up, I am in the SAISD school district. My bills, like what my kids don't, yes. When bills come up for money that needs to be for uh of whatever it is for SAISD. And my kids are in private school, so they don't go to SAISD, but I don't decline that. I willingly accept paying more taxes for SAISD because I think that that's what we should do. There's a there's a big difference in education and it should be more equal, but that's a topic for another time as well.
SPEAKER_03:But the next topic, just hang around.
SPEAKER_00:It'll be but that's I think that that's all part of it. Why shouldn't they all have the same education? And when laws come up, right, and and we should be fighting some of the laws that are that are not equal in nature or that are going to disparage a certain uh group, right? Right just because of their skin color or what have you. Like these are all things that we need to stand up for. And I think that everyone needs to get out of their comfort zone. Do what you can, right? But not to not to take a great personal hit or lose your job or that sort of stuff. Yeah, but you need to you need to get out of this realm of like, well, it hasn't impacted me, and so I'm just gonna let it be.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. We need to figure out what we're going to vote on. But I wanted to say this before because you guys, you know, we we kind of most of us grew up the same. I know David and DLH, we kind of grew up similar. I know I've gotten this, so I don't know if you guys have gotten this, but I have gotten calls from family members, from friends that are like, Jaime, what do you think about what's going on? Or when the election was going on, who should I really vote for? Because I hear this, and I felt it was imperative for me to go, look, I'm gonna give you, you know, kind of the most objective view, and then I'm gonna give you my opinion of it. And I won't let you decide whatever. I'm not gonna push you one way or another, but I'm gonna give you, I'm gonna try to lay out as much information. I don't know if you guys have done that or have gotten those calls. Like I do, and I I welcome those, like from especially people that kind of they're asking for your opinion, you know. And yeah, and so I have to be as honest with myself as possible. So it those of you that are out there there, you know, I'm freaking 51 already, so I'm already up there. So I'm already up there, dog. Like people are calling me like shit.
SPEAKER_02:No wonder you're shedding.
SPEAKER_03:It's it's you know, be be objective about it, give your opinion. But if somebody's actually asking you, then try to be as honest as possible.
SPEAKER_02:Put some effort in into ensuring that what you're giving them is is worthwhile. Yeah, accurate, yeah, accurate worthwhile.
SPEAKER_03:Accurate, you know, it's like objective, it's all that stuff. And then if if they ask for your opinion, then give them your opinion. But like try to lay out the information to so that they can make a good decision.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:I know I got that I got at least three calls, man, last election. And I know back to our text thread. I'm on a text thread with my family, and we discuss this all the time. We're Mexican, right? We I was born in Mexico. We this hits home for us. My dad just renewed his resident alien card, like, and we were a little afraid because that shit was taking a while. It was taking a while, you know what I'm saying? I'm like, man, this is I don't I don't like that one bit. And so it does hit home, and you do feel you do feel guilty for not doing anything, but like DLH do, like I mean, like DLH said, do what you can within your means. I think that's part of our what our ver verdict would be do what you can within your means. That's one. What else do you got?
SPEAKER_00:I you know, I would I would I think encourage anyone who legitimately has a question that wants to pose that to me via whatever our our our open channels are. I am not looking to convert people to whatever my political stance is. I am first and foremost going to advocate for the Constitution because that's a premise, right? That might and my my doctorate for those who don't know is in criminal justice. And so if there's a question there that we need to discuss, whether it's email, text, or on the phone, especially if you're a brother, you know, for a fraternity, then like feel free to contact me and I will talk about the constitution, not a specific political party. There's a lot to stand up for, there's a lot to do now, there's a lot that it is at risk, and we need to do more. Agreed.
SPEAKER_01:There you go.
SPEAKER_03:Sounds like a rap. It's pretty long, all right. Pretty long. So DLH's number is five five five.
SPEAKER_02:Actually, uh, if you want to email, you can use dlh at the chivalrychronicles.com, Jaime at thechivalicles.com, or David at the Shivrychronicle.com. Oh, all right, where's the gavel?
SPEAKER_03:Hit it. Yeah. Thank you for listening. If you enjoyed this episode and you'd like to help support the podcast, please share it with others, post about it on your social media, and or leave a rating and review. To catch all the latest from us, you can follow us on Instagram and X. So thanks again, and we'll see you next time.
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