The Chivalry Chronicles
We discuss topics such as Brotherhood, Masculinity, and Fatherhood. A modern manly approach to chivalry.
Or better yet, Guys Stuff that Guys Do, Cuz We're Guys.
The Chivalry Chronicles
Episode 025 - Interview Ray Lopez, author of "Lock Up: Professional Wrestling in Our World" (Part 2)
Michael Trevino joins David, & Jaime to interview Ray Lopez. Ray, Attorney at Law, is the author of "Lock Up: Professional Wrestling in Our World".
- Ray discusses women in professional wrestling.
- Nepotism in wrestling.
- Jaime pitches Ray an idea for his book.
- Ray discusses and explains "The Square Circle Presidents."
- Ray discusses what wrestlers he thought were going to make it.
- Who is on your Mount Rushmore of wrestling?
Issue a Verdict.
If by some chance, some stroke of luck, or some act of God, you have stumbled upon this broadcast, you are listening to The Chivalry Chronicles with your host, Dr. DLH.
SPEAKER_03:I'm a damn doctor!
SPEAKER_00:David. We're going to bring the tea.
SPEAKER_04:I refuse to not drink during the podcast.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And me, Jaime. They need to make podcast equipment a lot more expensive to get some of these clowns off the air. Gather around as we discuss a modern manly approach to chivalry. So I hope you're ready because I know we are. So let's get into it. Thank you for joining us for part two of the interview with Ray Lopez, the author of Lockup, Professional Wrestling in Our World. We'll dive right in as the guys discuss women in professional wrestling, maybe a little bit of nepotism also. Ray discusses the square circle presidents and who's in your Mount Rushmore wrestling. That's all next as we join the guys.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, yeah, I think that the women's evolution in professional wrestling has been probably the most significant monumental change from how wrestling used to be in the 80s and the 70s to now. I think back in the day they were just treated as side pieces, and this is nothing new, but I thought it would be a good thing to go through, and a lot of it's WWE, go through as you see these different moments and pay-per-views and things progress on, and we highlight them to kind of highlight how they were treating women as... Sex objects or they were getting really short matches and stuff like that until seeing the modern progression to where now they're pretty much treated as equals. And, you know, nothing is handed. Nothing is given to you, which I think is the right mentality to have. You know, some people want to think like, well, we need to have a women's main event. We need to have a men's main event. I mean, whatever is really popping, whatever is. The fans are behind. They do a great job of judging the pulse of the fans. That's what gets pushed to the forefront. But the women have done such fantastic work where they have worked their way to being at that forefront, to having people care about them. And that chapter kind of just talks about the evolution, the significant moments. You know, I think there was very significant moments at WrestleMania when Mickie James was fighting, I want to say Trish Stratus. And, you know, the other matches on the card were kind of like, you know, a Playboy Bunny match or kind of like these almost bra and panty type
SPEAKER_04:of matches.
SPEAKER_02:Pretty much like just, you know, sex filler matches. And I thought that was a significant moment because, you know, people were liking that. But then when the... You could hear the crowd turn on those matches, basically. I think there was a, this is bullshit chant started. And when Mickie James and Trish just gave a legit, regardless of gender, a legit great match. They put the work in. They had the characters in there. It was just good work rate. The crowd was really behind it, and they loved it. And I think that was probably one of the first moments when the wrestling world really signaled. When about was that?
SPEAKER_04:Ray, are we talking 80s, 90s?
SPEAKER_02:No, it's in the early 2000s.
SPEAKER_04:Okay, that far away. So I could have swore, and heck, it may have been a movie, but I could have swore there was like some lady that was a wrestler back in the 50s. Yeah, so there's a new movie out. It's called Queen of the Ring. Okay, yeah, that's probably
SPEAKER_03:why it comes. Yeah, about
SPEAKER_04:Mildred Burke. So what's the story on her? So, I mean, there was... lady wrestlers back then. And they were all kind of controlled by like, you know, just they had like their own promoters. And one of the biggest one was the great Mula. Like she was a promoter of women's wrestling and she almost kind of like had them like in, that was her stable. Like they would call Mula. If you wanted a women's match, call Mula and she'll get you two girls. Right. But that was true. That was true wrestling back then. Yeah. And they weren't showing as much. Of course, they weren't showing as much because it was the 40s. And then after that, I'm sorry, Ray, just to go a little further, like into the 80s, it became less about women wrestlers and more about women as valets. Elizabeth, that's the one that comes to mind that I always remember. Sister Sherry. But they still had a couple of matches here and there, but it wasn't like every other match is a women's match. And that's kind of where we are now,
SPEAKER_02:right? Right. Well, I think like back in those earlier days, wrestling was just treated in general as kind of like almost a circus show. And you had like side acts and oddities. You'd have like midget wrestling. You'd have a wrestling bear. You would have like all these variety acts of things. And then at some point, like probably towards the 80s, it got more focused just on like, you know, wrestling. And that kind of like... the women kind of went to the side, got pushed aside because they were kind of almost treated as like, they're that side novelty act. They're that wrestling bear. They're the wrestling midgets. They're those like something different, you know, for fans that want that. And so a lot of the, you know, MT's right. Most of the time that, you know, when we were growing up, we remember wrestling fans. We remember Miss Elizabeth standing on the stage taking off her skirt or Sensational Sherry.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, but wasn't there in the 80s that Netflix did a show called for GLOW. They did come up somewhere in the late 80s.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, and like you said, those are side projects or side shows.
SPEAKER_00:It was like Mount Fiji and all those... They started their own little, I guess... Wrestling Federation, whatever they did. And that Netflix show, because I watched that show. But they were a
SPEAKER_04:filler. Whenever it's all said and done, they were the filler, right? I mean, those were specific
SPEAKER_02:shows about women's wrestling. Yes. That was, I would say, sort of like a novelty promotion for the time. It wasn't really what you would consider mainstream wrestling.
SPEAKER_00:And they had it in Vegas. So they tried to pick it up a little bit. I want to say it was the late 80s. Because, yeah. And then it just died out just because it's...
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, it's kind of like... It's women's wrestling. Roller derby and kind of, you know, oh, we're going to have women skating around the thing. Like, oh, we'll have women's wrestling, like, whole show just with women.
SPEAKER_02:But it just wasn't, again, the same mainstream... that you get today. And it took a long time and a lot of effort by a lot of women and trainers and people that had faith in the women's program to make that happen. I mean, there was like niche little organizations here and there kind of like with the GLOW thing. But GLOW was like super campy. The girls really weren't real wrestlers. They would learn a few moves. They were just kind of like learning on the fly. And God bless them. They did a pretty good job of entertaining people for the while it lasted. But I mean, now these women, they're into they train from when they were kids just like the men do they go to Mexico they go to Japan they study all the art forms of the different types of wrestling to become like a complete real wrestler
SPEAKER_04:right
SPEAKER_02:who are your top women wrestlers like right now
SPEAKER_04:who do you think
SPEAKER_02:I mean, as much heat as she gets, there's no doubt that the queen is on top. I mean, Charlotte is probably the best female wrestler, in my opinion, of all time. She's got the total package. She's got the athletics. She's got the looks. She's got the pedigree that definitely doesn't hurt. And, you know, she can really go in the ring.
SPEAKER_04:And for those of you who don't know, we're talking about Charlotte Flair. Ric
SPEAKER_02:Flair's daughter. Ric Flair's real-life
SPEAKER_03:daughter. Yeah. That's right. That's all you got to do. That's all you know.
SPEAKER_00:That was terrible. She's got massive shoes to fill. We've got to cancel this show now. But isn't that always a thing? It's like so-and-so's son and so-and-so's daughter. There's a lot of that in wrestling. Yeah, no, in wrestling specifically, it's a big thing.
SPEAKER_02:Well, there's a lot of that getting in the door, but there's countless examples of... Family wrestlers, you know, good adults got some younger daughters that haven't, you know, panned out as much as they can. The rock starter was trying it for a while. Now she's kind of like in a backstage
SPEAKER_00:role. Well, the rock himself, right?
SPEAKER_02:Well, he is, too,
SPEAKER_04:but that doesn't guarantee... Second generation?
SPEAKER_02:No, third generation. Third generation, yeah. It's definitely a foot in the door, but by no means is it guaranteed that you're going to get the prominent spot, because at the end of the day, it's just a business, and whatever the fans are reacting to, whatever they think is really going to impress the audience, they're going to get that top billing, whether they're second generation or not.
SPEAKER_00:As somebody that's looked at this and researched it, which is really impressive. I know I've said that before, but it is really impressive. If you look at the book... Go get the book. I'm going to give you my pitch now. I told you during our break, I said, I have a pitch for you, but screw it. I'm going to do it right now because I'm thinking about it. Trading cards, man. If you just reduce those pie charts into a trading card with the picture of the rest on the front, bro, I would buy that. It'd just be cool to have. Yeah, but you just gave away his patent. We haven't aired it yet, so I can cut this out.
SPEAKER_02:You know, trading cards are big in professional wrestling. People love having the Topps trading card.
SPEAKER_00:But is there anything like that?
SPEAKER_02:I mean, not that I've seen out there. You know, I'm not a huge trading card guy. I do have some of them. Sometimes people will just send them to you randomly as part of, like, you order something else off the internet. I mean, they might have, like, some statistics in there.
SPEAKER_00:Here's why. I mean, as a kid, yeah, we did baseball cards, football cards. And then I came across when I was probably, like, 10, 11, is... Trading cards for comic books, right? We were big comic book fans. And I had a whole binder, and it was a comic book card for the actual comic book character, right? Psylocke. Yeah. And then it also had comic book cards for the battles, like Wolverine versus the Hulk, Wolverine versus Spider-Man, and when they fought and what was the record. And so it was, you know, I had that forever. I don't know what happened to it, I think. I think Lil has it somewhere in his stash of comic books, but it was, it was a binder that was, you know, about two inches thick and like laminated, not laminated, but you know, the little card holders, the little inserts. And so when I, when I saw that, when I was kind of flipping through, through your book, the fact that with the pie charts, it just, to me, I mean, bro, that that's a business right there.
SPEAKER_02:Well, you know, we thought, we thought about it and it might be happening in the future is, is Yes. Yes. Well, I really like these charts. Why don't I do more than 10? And then the next number that was naturally, as a wrestling fan, came into my mind was 30. 30-man Royal Rumble, it's significant. So then I started expanding to 30. But I would love to keep expanding those further and do more wrestlers, have one with the women's wrestlers too. I think you would have to be... comparing them separately. Cause you know, they didn't have as many title opportunities. There wasn't many titles until like now with the golden time. Like I think they just started having really mid-level belts for the longest time. They just had,
SPEAKER_00:I mean, if you couple it with a book, I think, I mean, I'd buy three more. You have three for me. Yeah. I will buy three more. I already bought three. I'll buy three more.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. And, and, and, and Ray does, uh, have a chapter where he's kind of, I think you'd describe it almost like a presidential election, who wins out of one versus the other, and Ric Flair versus Hulk Hogan in 1984 and so forth. What was your mindset going into that? particular
SPEAKER_02:chapter we call that one the presence of the square circle and there's two chapters on it part one part two and basically what it is is we start from the 80s and every four years from 1980 up until present time there's a quote unquote election in the world of professional wrestling so who's the top guy who's the person that's going to carry us forward for the next four years and now we try to ignore everything that we know and just look at the thing in a vacuum like you know if the election takes in 1984 we kind of like try to look at it Everything that happened before then, but not really everything that happened after because we don't want to know what panned out afterwards. Some guy might have got injured and be done forever, which would obviously throw a big kink into their presidency. So you got to know
SPEAKER_04:who's hot coming up.
SPEAKER_02:Who's coming up and who would be the potential. Yeah, and who would be the guy to lead the company forward. Right now, if you... Probably people would say Cody Rhodes is your guy right now. He's a WWE champion. He's been there for a year. He's headlining WrestleMania with John Cena. John probably had his time when he was the guy that was leading it forward. So we think it's a fun discussion if we can have two wrestlers, and not just necessarily from WWE. There's some WCW guys in there. I think AEW had a candidate at one point in time. It was a very
SPEAKER_04:short period of time.
SPEAKER_02:Well, yeah. I mean, it was a relatively new promotion. Was it Kenny? It was Kenny Omega. It is Kenny Omega, yes. I think his campaign was against Becky Lynch because Becky Lynch was on fire.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, Becky Lynch would have taken him. She
SPEAKER_02:was on fire at that point. So I think it's a fun fan discussion to have where we're just comparing these two wrestlers at any given point in time. And you're talking about their kind of career up until that point, what their strong points are, what the other person's strong points are. But ultimately, who, in my opinion, would be the wrestler that you would
SPEAKER_04:pick? I got an interesting question. Okay. I didn't get to read that chapter yet, but did it fall in an interesting spot? I'm thinking about the year that Triple H, the curtain call, right? He got punished for the curtain call. Did that happen within a year of when the election would be? Because if it did, we would say, oh, Triple H is going to be president this year. But really, we know, in hindsight, that it would become Stone Cold. Yeah. So like, where was it? Where did it fall?
SPEAKER_02:I don't remember on that specific example, but I will tell you that when we were writing the book, the debt happened quite a bit and quite more than you would think that there was just like real life things that would derail somebody's whole campaign. Um, I think Shawn Michaels at one point was, he was, it was him and Brent and you know, we were deciding who was going to be the next guy for them to, well, Sean got in a real life fight with a couple of Marines is pretty famously known. And that kind of derailed his campaign. Um, John Cena sustained a really significant injury at one point and that he was expected to be out for a year. And, you know, if you're expected to be out for a year, can you really be the president for the next four years? So there are
SPEAKER_04:real
SPEAKER_02:life twists and turns in there that are just like these things happen and they would might have derailed your career. your run. Ric Flair could have been a candidate even going further, but he had just jumped to the WWE. And that was a big unknown. We've seen how WWE treated some non-homegrown talent at that time. The Road Warriors, I still like the Legion of Doom, but a lot of people said they were very watered down. Dusty Rhodes famously had those polka dots. So was Ric Flair going to get that treatment or not? I think they treated Ric Flair alright in hindsight, but those were the things that you didn't know. You didn't know if you were evaluating what Vince is going to do. Yeah. Right. So there are real life things that like, you know, affect who is going to win on any given election year.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. That's interesting. That's a good, good thoughts to have a real good, good conversation to go
SPEAKER_00:through. Okay. I think go back to, go back to the thought that, that when we started, I said, because of all the research that you've done and it's extensive, is there, is there a wrestler that, that, that you've seen or that, you know, in the past 20 years or whatever that you go, this guy's going to be the next guy. Like, do you always have, man, this guy, like I watch football all the time. Right. And you, you notice players and you always have arguments. Right. For me, let's say whenever DeMarcus word got drafted by the Cowboys, you know, that was Sean Merriman that was drafted by the chargers. Right. And they were drafted about the same year. I mean, they were drafted the same year in about the same spot. And so because I'm a Cowboys fan, I was like, I think DeMarcus Ware is better. And over time, you were on the right side of history, right? DeMarcus Ware was better. When you're looking at new wrestlers coming up, because of your extensive research, because we all do it, right? But is there people that you were like, yes, I was right about this guy from day one. I saw him. I knew he was going to do this. He was going to be the next big guy. Like, do you have that? Do you think about that stuff? Do you,
SPEAKER_02:you know? Yeah. And there's a lot of young guys that are coming up that I think are primed to be the next big thing. I remember the first time when AEW was just starting and I saw MJF and I was like, I didn't know who this guy was. I had no idea who he was from the independent scene, but I saw him. I saw him on the microphone. I was like, he's got something. If he can wrestle, he's got, and then I saw some of his matches and homeboy can really wrestle. He can put on some fantastic matches. And so, you know, there's people that just seem like they got it. Like they got it. And you never know what's going to happen. You never know if they're going to be difficult to work with, if they're not going to go around, if they're going to have personal issues or, or they're just going to cool off for natural reasons. Um, you know, I thought when, when LA Knight came and became Max Dupree, I was like, why are they doing that? Why are they doing that? He seemed like I'd seen some of his earlier stuff. I was like, he seemed like he was so much better
SPEAKER_04:than that. And the next day he was, he wasn't
SPEAKER_02:Max Dupree. And he was so much better than that. I was like, what are they doing? What are they doing? So you can, yeah, you can see what somebody has it. I think, you know, in my personal opinion, I'd say Ric Flair is the perfect wrestler because he had the total package of what being a wrestler is.
SPEAKER_04:So would you, would you name him like the goat for professional? That's a good question. So like we're good. Everybody in wrestling, they talk about their Mount Rushmore, like who's on your Mount Rushmore of wrestling. And, and like, it's, it's, it's a great, So is Ric Flair on your Mount Rushmore, and who are your other three?
SPEAKER_02:I mean, absolutely, it would be Ric Flair. And the reason why he's just the GOAT, in my opinion, is because he had the total package, meaning he could really work in the ring. He could give you a fantastic five-star match. Work with
SPEAKER_04:anybody.
SPEAKER_02:If that's your thing, he can give you some of the greatest matches ever. Now, I think the best person to ever work in the ring was Shawn Michaels, who's a native of San Antonio boy. But... He's good on the microphone, and he's entertaining, but he's just, you know, Ric Flair, just a little something more special. He didn't
SPEAKER_04:have all the problems that Sean had, too.
SPEAKER_02:He didn't have all the problems that Sean had. He had a longer career.
SPEAKER_04:When you're saying problems, you're talking about out-of-the-ring problems? Yeah, backstage problems, personal issues.
SPEAKER_02:That Sean had to famously overcome, and he says it all the time about... his younger days. And, you know, yes, there were some issues, but he was probably the best person in the ring, you know, bell to bell. Yes. I think that, but Rick was really good and he was, you know, close to Sean's level. But then when you had the promos mixed in and you had the character and the, all that signature stuff, I think that's what made him the goat. Now, who would be the mountain Rushmore? I would say, I would put Rick Flair up there for sure. I would probably put, I mean, you got to put Stone Cold Steve Austin. Yes. I know he's a controversial figure right now, but Hulk Hogan really changed the whole industry. He may not have been the greatest worker, but he wasn't that bad. Okay,
SPEAKER_00:so what's your criteria, though, for your Mount Rushmore? Because I think that makes a difference. I
SPEAKER_02:would say who had the most lasting legacy in the world of professional wrestling.
SPEAKER_00:Within wrestling, not outside of wrestling,
SPEAKER_02:right? Right. Or, you know, it could also, it carries over the other way because, you know, when you transition to outside, you bring in mainstream attention and you make it bigger.
SPEAKER_00:But that's why I wanted to make that distinction. Like, are you saying just made an impact to where they brought more fans from, you know, so like The Rock just, I think, brought more fans back to wrestling instead of the other way around, right? It got him out of wrestling, but then it brought him back, right?
SPEAKER_02:And The Rock's a close one, and he's deserving to be on anybody's Not Rushmore. I would not...
SPEAKER_00:But not yours. But you would put Stone Cold over... You know, The
SPEAKER_02:Rock is my personal favorite. He's my personal and my favorite wrestler of all time. He is the most entertaining guy that you see. When you have a segment with The Rock, whether he's just sitting there talking or he's having a match, you will be entertained. There's no doubt about it. The problem with putting The Rock on the Mount Rushmore, in my opinion, is he has such a relatively, and it's in the graphs chapter, he has such a relatively short in-ring career because he got called to Hollywood. And hey, nobody in the world could blame him. I think any of us would have done the same
SPEAKER_00:thing. So longevity in wrestling is a big deal to you personally
SPEAKER_02:i mean i'd say it plays a factor
SPEAKER_00:yeah it would definitely and so right now you have rick flair stone cold hulk hogan and what's your fourth
SPEAKER_02:you know
SPEAKER_00:is it fluid is it a fluid rushmore
SPEAKER_02:some could say it would be john cena some would say you could put sean no
SPEAKER_04:what does ray say though
SPEAKER_02:i would have to give that final spot to sean undertaker Oh shit, out of nowhere. Just because of his lasting career, his impact on the business. He had some of the greatest entrances ever. I mean, the Tombstone Piledriver was probably the most perfect finishing mover for his character, for his person. Yeah, everything was... I would say...
SPEAKER_00:His branding was really good.
SPEAKER_02:I'm giving it to Undertaker. Now, it's a tough one, that last... It's all tough
SPEAKER_00:ones. No, it's a pretty good fucking...
SPEAKER_02:You could take out some of these guys and put in Rock, put in... I love Bret Hart. He was fantastic. Sean was fantastic. John Cena obviously did huge business.
SPEAKER_00:I would probably take Hogan out just because I'm not a big fan. Sure.
SPEAKER_02:He's got a lot of... But
SPEAKER_00:Ric Flair, Stone Cold, Undertaker, that's pretty
SPEAKER_04:solid. That's a big thing about it, too. It depends on your era. When you were watching, it's all subjective. That's why it's such a good conversation to have. I don't have a four, but the two big names that stand out is a Hulk Hogan and a Ric Flair. When I think wrestling, those are the two images that pop in my head. There's others that will pop in my head, but those are the first two. And
SPEAKER_02:if you have somebody over 50, they're probably going to throw Bruno San Martino in there if they're over 50, and rightfully so. I just think that anybody who's probably under 50 didn't really get to experience a lot of what he had, his time over there. And, you know, there's not a lot of tape or, like, you know, watchable tape to watch for, you know. You can watch grainy old matches, but, like, who's going to do that in this era, you know?
SPEAKER_04:When you talk about flair, like, He had matches in that era, too. He did, yeah. But then you also have all of the stuff that he did in the 80s, 90s, 2000s. It's ridiculous the longevity of Ric Flair. It's crazy. How much, how far he
SPEAKER_02:went. I also think post-career matters, which you have to give big props to Triple H for what he's doing, but post-career matters as well. And Ric Flair has just been relevant forever. He's never fallen off of the limelight. You might ask some... youngster who Bruno San Martino was and they would not know, but they, you know, people are going to know Ric Flair is and the impact on the culture, how the football players take a say in. And I mean, that, that would, that would be
SPEAKER_04:mine. How about you MT? What's your, what's your Mount Rushmore? Cause you're a wrestling fanatic. It's pretty close to, to raise. I mean, it's, it's, it's Ric Flair. It's definitely Stone Cold. Like Stone Cold is the biggest thing in wrestling, like ever. Like, from Victoria, Texas. My mom is from Victoria, Texas, bro. Like, come on. Oh, I didn't know that. I didn't know he was from Victoria. Yeah, well, that's what he always claimed. He was billed as. Yeah, he was billed as. And he said he liked... So he's not really from there, then? He went to high school there for a little bit. I think, yeah. I think he might have been raised in some other part of Texas. He was raised in some other part. Yeah, it was a smaller town. But, yeah, he's... So Rick, Stone Cold. Oh, man. And even though, like... Like I am one of those people that like chance John Cena sucks because it's so much fun, but you got to give it to John Cena. Like he is the biggest thing in wrestling, like for our generation. Like, and now that was everywhere. He's in every damn commercial. He's in like TV shows. He's in, you know, in Marvel stuff. I mean, he's just huge. I
SPEAKER_02:think me and you were at a match once and John Cena was doing like a Make-A-Wish thing with a kid and you were still booing the hell out of him. I was like, come on, man. He's helping out the kids,
SPEAKER_04:bro. I'm not going to say what I said at that match. I was like 10 to 15 beers in and he was with the Make-A-Wish kid and I hope that Make-A-Wish kid is okay now. Yeah, probably. Yeah, so Rick, John, Stone Cold. Oh, man. think and i think i gotta go undertaker like it like like ray said just for longevity and like everything that he like did in the ring for the business but then like also if you hear about the undertaker backstage like that was the guy that you go to if something goes wrong in the back of the ring what was the mick foley guy oh mick foley's awesome but what was his other character mankind yeah i remember he had like multiple ones
SPEAKER_02:Yeah,
SPEAKER_00:he had a bunch of guys from parts unknown,
SPEAKER_02:wasn't he? Did he ever read Rested Autobiographies? I think Mick Foley's Rested Autobiography is by far the best one there is. Which is crazy to think because it's very well written and he wrote it himself. And the guy took the most insane bumps ever. So you would probably think he's probably not a very smart guy. But you read his book and he's very intelligent.
SPEAKER_00:As big as he is... I mean, you would think that he would have broken down at some point. Like, he's not like a... That dude's not in, like... Tip-top shape. Well, he's in wrestling shape, right? He doesn't got the physique. Yeah, he does not have the physique for it, but he's... He's never
SPEAKER_02:had a traditional wrestling body. Yeah. He'll be the first one to admit that. Right,
SPEAKER_00:but you just think...
SPEAKER_04:But he can go. Yeah. And that's the thing, like, with wrestling, like, they say a lot of the thing is, like, is can you go, can you last 10 to 15 to 20 to 30, you know, 45 minutes in the ring running around with all these guys? Yeah. And as big as he is, he's bigger than me.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, he's definitely bigger than you.
SPEAKER_02:I know Chris Jericho would always famously say, if you go into wrestling, you've got to give the people something they haven't seen before. And Mick Foley definitely did that. Well, you have to have. He gave them things like, what is this? Where did this come from? We've never seen stuff that Mick Foley would do. He was a madman. And the paradox of him being such a good author. If you're going to read any wrestling books, his autobiography would be the one I would
SPEAKER_04:say. If you're going to read any wrestling books. Other than mine. If you're going to read Speaking of things you've never seen before, adding that element to it, when did the cage match come into play? Do either of you know when
SPEAKER_02:the cage match came into? That was like, yeah, probably in the
SPEAKER_04:70s or 60s.
SPEAKER_02:Maybe even earlier than that. Maybe earlier than that? Yeah, they've been around for a while.
SPEAKER_04:And then who thought, let's bring in a freaking ladder?
SPEAKER_02:Well, that was originally... If the Lord goes, that was Bret Hart's idea, and Bret Hart had a few of them.
SPEAKER_00:Well, didn't they hang the... The belt was hanging. Yeah, it was almost
SPEAKER_04:like a capture the flag
SPEAKER_02:type of event. Well, Bret and Shawn had a match. It was just at a house show, which Bret won. It was like the first ladder match in the WWE. And it was kind of Bret's idea, something that his dad was a promoter in Canada, Stu Hart, legendary figure. And then, you know, Shawn and Razor famously had that WrestleMania match, which in the book, we have what we call the Wrestling Match Hall of Fame. And now I find it... Crazy that there's the immortal moment for the WWE Hall of Fame. Well, before there was the immortal moment, in lockup, we had the Wrestling Match Hall of Fame. And what we did there is we took a class of, I believe, eight matches. And we mirrored the eight number. Again, there were significance there. The first WWE Hall of Fame was just one person, Andre the Giant. It was like, well, we have to do more than one match. And the second WWE Class Hall of Fame was seven people. So it was like eight's a good number. So we put in eight matches in there. And Shawn's legendary... Ladder match. Ladder match with Razor Ramon at WrestleMania was there. That was really the one that catapulted the ladder match to what we know as it today. And now Bret Wood might stew. It's like he stole my idea. But when Shawn did it, like... You got to give him and Razor Ramon a lot of credit. Nobody had really done it. They'd done it before, but not at that level. And it was still super relatively new. The creativity that they
SPEAKER_04:used, all the ladder and everything that they did with it, it was just unseen before.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely. That's why I had to include the match in the Hall of Fame, in which we give you the match statistics about that, who the referee is, what the crowd was, the promotion. All that stuff is laid out for you before we get into it. And then we have... a section that has the build, which is basically the story kind of leading up to the match. And then we break down the actual match. And then we talk about a little bit about the match's legacy afterwards. So,
SPEAKER_04:and I haven't gotten to this chapter yet, but so what was your, your match hall of fame? Like what, which, which match was in your hall of fame?
SPEAKER_02:We included Bret Hart versus Stone Cold Steve Austin, the famous one that's now being inducted. I will take credit that I inducted it first. Did you induct it first? I did. Oh, my God. The book was published before they made that announcement, so maybe they were thinking about that in the back. I'm not saying they stole my idea.
SPEAKER_04:I'm not saying they stole your idea. I think Hunter owes you some money. Those of you who don't know, the WWE, every year at WrestleMania, they have a Hall of Fame, and they stick wrestlers in the Hall of Fame. And also, this last year, they got bought by TKO, which owns UFC. UFC has a Hall of Fame. And not only do they stick wrestlers in there, but they also stick matches. So now WWE is like, all right, we're going to stick a match in our Hall of Fame. And the one that they're doing is Bret Hart and Stone Cold, which is a classic. Classic.
SPEAKER_02:I thought it was the best there is, the best there was. That's right. It will be, baby. Fantastic match. But to answer your question, let me give you the rundown of the matches we included. And this is in... chronological order of when they first appeared or when they first took place. So the first one was Ricky the Dragon Steamboat versus Macho Man Randy Savage, the famous match at WrestleMania 3. Many people say one of the greatest matches of all time. I think it was pretty inarguable until Shawn's ladder match that that was the best WrestleMania match of all time. We had to include Hulk Hogan and Andre the Giant, that same match on that card. That's the one that I remember. It's
SPEAKER_04:so iconic. He lifted him over his head, which it really didn't mean. So
SPEAKER_02:iconic.
SPEAKER_00:He did not. I think Andre just pushed his
SPEAKER_04:belly out. I
SPEAKER_02:think there was one moment when Hogan was going to try to back body. Andre, and you were just like, the laws of physics. I mean, he's like 460 pounds. That's just impossible to do. I don't care how strong you are. No human is doing that.
SPEAKER_04:You're on a lot of roads. Yeah. Not
SPEAKER_02:that many. And then we had the Nature Boy Ric Flair versus Ricky the Dragon Steamboat for the NWA World Championship. They had a trio of great matches, but the one we selected was the class champion six back in 1989 in the New Orleans Superdome. Yeah. Classic match, really good work from both of those guys. Great ring work. And I also thought that the match was very fitting. It was kind of like this was towards the end of the NWA run because they were about transitioning into WCW. So it was kind of like one of their swan songs. Like, here's one of their last great matches that we're going to give that world to the Contribution Wrestling. So that one made it in. Of course, the match that I just talked about, the ladder match with Shawn Michaels and the bad guy, Razor Ramon, that one got in. Then we had the Stone Cold Bret Hart match that is now WWE has agreed with and inducted. I had to have a match representing the luchador culture. I love luchadors being a Hispanic myself, so we put in Rey Mysterio Jr. versus Eddie Guerrero for the Cruiserweight Championship. Oh, yeah. Back in Halloween Havoc, you remember the purple Spider-Man suit that Rey won. I mean, that match was, it wasn't too long. Yeah, 1351 was the match time. But it was, I mean, those were like fast, hard-hitting moments. They filled that time. They were flying around that ring. It was a fantastic match. Yeah, we
SPEAKER_04:call that chingasos.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it was a fantastic match. It really showed a lot of the American audience of just how dope luchador matches could be.
SPEAKER_04:That's what I really loved about WCW. They had a lot of luchas.
SPEAKER_02:They highlighted a lot of lucha culture and introduced it to a whole new audience. I think the WWE roster now has 17 Latinos. I saw that
SPEAKER_04:post the other day. They have 17 active
SPEAKER_02:Latino wrestlers. Ray Phoenix is just blessed on the scene. He's doing some great stuff. I think a lot of that legacy is from WCW introducing luchadors on there. Out of all that, I would say... I mean, personal favorite, that was my personal favorite match between luchadores, Ray and Eddie at Halloween.
SPEAKER_04:Even people like Billy Kidman, the lightweights.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, a lot of other people adopted the luchador style. And a lot of white wrestlers or other wrestlers will go to Mexico and be there for a couple of years, really studying the craft, which is also why you give respect for the women because they're doing that now too. They're going to other countries and just living there for a while to study the craft.
SPEAKER_00:I think... That Netflix show, I think Eddie Guerrero was one of the kind of, they brought him in as kind of to teach those actors how to wrestle. I want to say it was.
SPEAKER_02:Well, Eddie's been gone for a long time. R.I.P. Eddie. It was Chavo. You're thinking of Chavo. Chavo Guerrero. Who's also
SPEAKER_00:part of the Guerrero family. Yeah. So they brought him in as a consultant or whatever. Yeah. He
SPEAKER_02:taught him how to wrestle. Right. I think he still does. He does like movie stuff like that. part-time, and yeah, that was good old Chavo. And then I put in Mick Cactus Jack Foley versus Triple H at the Royal Rumble in 2000. It was a hardcore match. Really, I wanted a match also that kind of represented that hardcore legacy, that hardcore ring of professional wrestling. This was a tax. It was also with Triple H, who's a legendary wrestler, legendary figure. So I thought that match was deserving to be in our first class of the Hall of Fame.
SPEAKER_04:That's interesting that you picked that one over the... Mankind Rock Match. Because that one was always the... For me, that was the most hardcore... Not hardcore, but it was just... Are
SPEAKER_02:you talking about the 20, when he took like 20 chair shots? Chair shots, yes,
SPEAKER_04:yes.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I mean, I think that's why the match didn't make it, because it's
SPEAKER_04:just,
SPEAKER_02:the replay value may not be there, because it's just, it is, it makes you cringe. It's like, a human being should not be taking that kind of chair shots.
SPEAKER_04:And he was not only taking chair shots, but like, he was taking chair shots. With his hands tied behind his back.
SPEAKER_02:Unprotected.
SPEAKER_04:So there is no blocking anything. And The Rock was not showing any kind
SPEAKER_02:of
SPEAKER_04:remorse or anything.
SPEAKER_02:And Foley told The Rock to lay it in there, according to lore, to hit it stiff. And here his reputation proceeded. And he's like, Mick can probably take it. And he's wanting me to do this. And it got a little out of hand. Yeah, it did. It got a little
SPEAKER_04:out of hand. And Mick's family is there at ringside. And it's hard. If you've ever seen a... Wrestling, the wrestling documentary. Right. What is it?
SPEAKER_02:Well, they just had a Dark Side of the Ring one about this particular match. That one was about the Hell in a Cell match. No, that was
SPEAKER_04:about Hell in a Cell.
SPEAKER_02:But they've had other ones with that. His children were basically traumatized from watching what the dad did. Because his would take it to a whole new level.
SPEAKER_04:Beyond the mat. That's what it is. Beyond the mat.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_04:Has the clip of that show and like, yeah, of that match.
SPEAKER_02:And then my last match was... San Antonio's own Shawn Michaels vs. The Undertaker, WrestleMania 25, 2009, Reliant Stadium, Houston. I think that was the first of their two iconic matches. I mean, that's probably one of the best matches of all time. I mean, you had The Undertaker and Shawn Michaels. You had the juxtaposition of all white versus all dark. That was the good and evil match, right? The pretty boy versus the monster. It just had everything. It just had everything. And so those are the matches that we inducted in the Hall of Fame. And we talked about them. We talked about their legacy. We talked about the actual match. It's fun. I think wrestling fans will get a big kick out of it.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I mean, Ray, at the end of the day, you did put together a well-crafted book even for someone that's not into wrestling. The layout of it, you embark on kind of a fun, entertaining journey. So even if you're not into it, you could read a couple pages and get something from it. Yeah. Kudos to you, brother. Thank you. Kudos to you.
SPEAKER_02:I think the ultimate goal of the book was I just wanted to make something that was fun, not super serious. There are plenty of those books out there. I've read plenty of them myself. They're good books, but I wanted to do something really different. And when I came up with this book, I wanted it to be something different that wrestling fans had never seen before. I wanted to have visuals. I wanted to have the charts, the graphs, the illustrations. I wanted to have a fun way to be discussing wrestling fans. I mean, there's one chapter called The Tournament of Jericho. Again, kind of Jericho being the guy that kind of also started this whole process for me where we break down like which version of Chris Jericho is the best so we have a fake tournament and we put like 1996 for example against 1992 or whatever the case may be two different and we compare the two of them kind of give a rundown to the stats to say which one was the best version of himself in a fictional tournament where he's fighting himself there's a lot of stuff like that for like fans and I think we'll just get into a lot of the hardcore stuff so it's you know it's part history it's part fan discussion I think it's just a lot of fun for wrestling fans, too.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely. Yeah, and I think it's something for everybody, like David was saying, for somebody like myself that grew up in the 80s and watched a lot of 80s matches and then somewhere in the 90s, there's something in this book for me. There's something in the book for MT, who kind of came on strong somewhere in the 2000s. I mean, and so it's a really good kind of... It's even like... bits and pieces all over the place. Like the things that you did with it, you know, with the matches, I think, I think that's genius. Like it, it kind of gives it like a, like a sports feel, you know what I'm saying? Like a, you know, cause you, you always talk about that in sports, in football, all with, you know, with, with the, with today's, you know, the Eagles, uh, that won a Super Bowl last year, could they even meet up with the 1970s Steelers? It's a fun discussion to have. Yeah, it's always a fun. And the answer is any team now would whoop the 70s teams. Just wait alone. You know what I'm saying? Like the linemen were like 200 pounds. But it's a great discussion. And the fact that you kind of massage that into wrestling is pure genius to me. I mean, I love that. I love the pie charts. I love the... The Match, Hall of Fame. I mean, it's just a good book. It's... and I'm
SPEAKER_02:well I appreciate that and I think another one of the goals was I wanted a book for everybody whether you're you know somebody who just watched wrestling back in the day and you know a lot of feedback I've gotten for people that have bought it be like yeah you know me and my cousin used to watch it or you know I used to watch it with my brother back in the day I really haven't fallen into it much but then I picked up the book and like it just brought me back to all those days and I kind of liked it and some people like I want to start watching again and then you have like hardcore people like I know MT knows his fair share of wrestling knowledge but I think there's still things that in the book that even like because all those stats were you know we just made them up because they're all based on reality we had to we looked through each individual matches I mean it took a ton of work but that's something that you would not get unless you like did all that leg work but hey we did it all for you and we did all the work we did all the math and you're just there for all those charts for you to enjoy so I wanted to have something where a hardcore wrestling fan would still find something new and exciting and fun about it but kind of just a casual fan that used to like watch every now and again back in the day could also enjoy it and there is a lot lot of stuff about wrestling out there, which is kind of also why we decided we need to do a fun, creative format to make it something different.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, so maybe Jaime, to kind of start rounding things out here, we need probably more to prove something? Yeah. I
SPEAKER_01:kind of have
SPEAKER_04:an idea. Well, then pitch it. We want to hear it. I make the motion that you pick up Ray Lopez's book, lock up, Found on Amazon or your local bookstore. Fine bookstore. So if it's a bad bookstore, get out and go get it from Amazon. But otherwise, you know where to get it in San Antonio. If you don't, you can certainly hit us up and we'll get you connected directly with
SPEAKER_00:Ray.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. One of those retailers.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. No, we'll provide a link in our Instagram page. Yeah. For the Amazon. Yeah,
SPEAKER_02:you can go to mascotbooks.com. That's the name of the publisher. They're a publishing house out on the East Coast. You can order directly from there. It's on Amazon. It's on Barnes and Nobles. So there are many ways you can get it. If anybody's listening to me, they can always get a hold of me. These guys on the show will know how to get a hold of me. You can follow me on Twitter at LuchaLockup. Slide into the DMs. If you want to sign a copy, we can make that happen for you.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so I'll defer my... My verdict to our resident wrestling, what do you call it? Fanatic? Fanatic, yeah. Enthusiast. Enthusiast, there you go. So I'll go ahead and defer to him to come up with a verdict. Go ahead, MT. Oh, give me the
SPEAKER_04:proxy vote. The proxy vote. What do you think? What's that?
SPEAKER_00:He's giving you his proxy vote. Board approved? Come up with a statement
SPEAKER_04:that's board approved. So I'd like to declare Ray Lopez not only... like a great writer, but also a great lawyer. And what I'm saying is he's the gloat.
SPEAKER_03:The gloat.
SPEAKER_04:You wrestling fans know what the gloat is, but he's the gloat. He's the greatest lucha lawyer of all time. The gloat.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, I take it back. I take my vote back.
SPEAKER_04:Hey, I think I had a motion on the floor, sir. Yeah, so once again, I make the motion that you go and pick up Ray Lopez's book, Lock Up, found at any major retailer such as Amazon, Barnes& Noble, or the outlets that Ray described, or hit us up.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that sounds good. I'm good with it. Oh, the amendment? Oh, okay. Yeah, that was MT's amendment. I guess. I immediately regretted that decision. But there you go. Board approved. Thank you for listening. If you enjoyed this episode and you'd like to help support the podcast, please share it with others. Post about it on your social media and or leave a rating and review. To catch all the latest from us, you can follow us on Instagram and X. So thanks again, and we'll see you next time.
