The Chivalry Chronicles
We discuss topics such as Brotherhood, Masculinity, and Fatherhood. A modern manly approach to chivalry.
Or better yet, Guys Stuff that Guys Do, Cuz We're Guys.
The Chivalry Chronicles
Episode 024 - Interview Ray Lopez, author of "Lock Up: Professional Wrestling in Our World" (Part 1)
Michael Trevino joins David, & Jaime to interview Ray Lopez. Ray, Attorney at Law, is the author of "Lock Up: Professional Wrestling in Our World".
- Discuss Ray's background as an Attorney.
- Ray discussed how he got into writing and how he decided to write this book.
- The hosts discuss their own personal views of professional wrestling.
- The hosts discuss Chapter 1: Gimmicks of Professional Wrestling.
- The hosts going into the "math & science" of a wrestler.
Part 2 out soon.
If by some chance, some stroke of luck, or some act of God, you have stumbled upon this broadcast, you are listening to The Chivalry Chronicles with your host, Dr. DLH.
SPEAKER_04:I'm a damn doctor!
SPEAKER_01:David.
SPEAKER_02:We're going to bring the tea. I refuse to not drink during the podcast.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And me, Jaime. They need to make podcast equipment a lot more expensive to get some of these clowns off the air. Gather around as we discuss a modern manly approach to chivalry. So I hope you're ready because I know we are. So let's get into it. There you go. We're sitting here. I believe somebody's coming in from the green room, and I hope he was taken care of. Our guest today is Ray Lopez, attorney at law. Yeah. Where's the gavel? There it is. Yeah. Yeah. So we were talking about this. Ray wrote a book about wrestling. And we decided, hey, come on the podcast and let's discuss. We have some listeners that are wrestling fans. We have MT with us who joined us for the Guadalupe Peak. Welcome. And David, you have anything or... No, I'm
SPEAKER_03:always
SPEAKER_01:here Let's get into it, right? Ray, you wrote a book. It's called Lock Up. It's on Amazon.
SPEAKER_03:Correct. Amazon, Barnes& Nobles, and wherever you find good books.
SPEAKER_01:Whenever, wherever. Hey, like at the Pearl downtown. It's there?
SPEAKER_03:It is at the Pearl downtown at the bookstore.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, there's a bookstore right there. We go to that bookstore all the time, and... It just so happens every book that I want, they're like, we don't have it. We can order it. And I was like, no, I came to the bookstore to buy the damn book. I can order that shit from home. I'll get that shit tonight. I kind of just want to see it. But yeah, tell us a little bit about yourself. You are an attorney. You went to Baylor University. Is that where you got your law degree? No. Oh, good.
SPEAKER_03:It's at the Twig bookstore at the Pearl. The Twig. That's right. Down there. And yeah, it's always exciting when I see the Twig sends me an envelope with checks. That means a couple of books have flown off the shelf. Nice.
SPEAKER_01:So you do get an actual check?
SPEAKER_03:From bookstores, you do. Like from the big distributors, that's kind of like a direct bank transfer. But from the little bookstores that we're in, then yeah, they'll periodically send it.
SPEAKER_01:You don't do like Trump where you buy your own book to make it look like it's selling really well?
SPEAKER_03:I don't think Trump is alone in doing that. I think a lot of authors love to do that. They want the big spike out there. But no, I haven't done that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So tell us a little bit about yourself. Tell us first what you do as a profession. We like to kid about professionals here. DLH, which isn't here, is our professional. But there are actual professionals that do professional work. So just tell us a little bit about yourself, and then we'll get into how you got into writing this book.
SPEAKER_03:Sure, absolutely. So I was born and raised in San Antonio, Texas, over here on the west side. Proud alumni of John F. Kennedy. And then after I finished my high school education, I did one year at San Antonio Community College here in town. And then eventually I transferred over to Baylor, where I finished my undergraduate degree. Took a year off, and then I ended up founding myself at Texas Tech for law school. Worked a few jobs. three or four different cities across Texas, going for different firms. Finally decided I think the best life for me would be just to do my own thing, be my own boss, and just go out on my own. So I returned home in 2013 to San Antonio, opened up my own little law firm, and, you know, it was a struggle at first, but things are great now. They've been steadily climbing. Got a good clientele basis. It's been very busy. So I've been blessed that things have been going great here.
SPEAKER_01:Great. Do you have a specialty in what type of lawyer you are?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, absolutely. We handle personal injury cases, family law cases, and some criminal defense matters as well.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, so now you know DWIs.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I've handled lots of DWIs. Because,
SPEAKER_01:you know, David might need one.
SPEAKER_03:No, I've already used Ray for other services. Thank you.
SPEAKER_01:I do appreciate it, and I do love my repeat clients. I'm here whenever you need me. Keep getting in trouble. I'm here whenever you need me. Okay, so here's my questions, and then I'll give it to MT or David if you want to chime in. My question is because I'm really interested in what got you into writing. Did you do that in high school? Were you always like an avid– Did you love doing research papers? That type of stuff. Because I fancy myself wanting to write a book, but I'm always like, what about? You know what I'm saying? So what got you into this topic? What got you into writing? What gave you the audacity to think you could write a book?
SPEAKER_03:Well, I'll start with the writing in general. It did start when I was in high school. I did like to write then. And throughout high school and college, I was working on... unfinished, still unfinished novel. Totally different from the type of book I was writing. But I was writing that for, you know, several years off and on working on it.
SPEAKER_01:So you started another novel, like previously?
SPEAKER_03:Previously another novel. It was more of like a true crime fiction set in Latin America because I had... One of my degrees was in Latin American studies, so all that was fresh in my mind. So I figured we could use that, and we'd have a true crime type of story about an American that goes down there, and some of those things happen. I was really old school on that one. That one, I was literally writing pen to paper in a journal by hand. I still got that journal somewhere. So I was working on that for a while, and then I got into law school. Once I got into law school, I mean, we're talking about, like, Your first year, you're reading like 200 pages a day. So there was no mental energy to keep at it with the book. And so I kind of put my passion for writing on the back burner. That's kind of how I got my first experience getting into writing.
SPEAKER_00:As a lawyer, there's a lot of crossover as far as you have to write stuff and briefs and things like that, so do you get a lot of practice in that way, or is it a different type of writing that you have to do for law?
SPEAKER_03:I would say it's a totally different type of writing. I mean, you are telling a story to a certain degree, but of course you have to have it all in the proper formats and the proper rules and all that. It's totally different than creative writing. You're telling a story, but you're telling a story based off... what somebody told you and you're putting it down there. And most of it is in legal jargon and making sure you have all your legal T's and I's dotted and crossed, so to speak. And, you know, I think when you spend your time doing a lot of that legal writing, it can't drain you to where like, you know, trying to write creatively, you know, becomes that much more harder because you kind of already like you've exhausted your writing for the days. Like I've written enough, you know, I just wrote a 48 page divorce. So, so
SPEAKER_02:I don't want to write
SPEAKER_03:anymore.
SPEAKER_02:Outside of, outside of that, then would you say that you started more on the creative side growing up? Is it something that you just did randomly? Did you keep a journal or were you writing stories as part of a school project or something like that in general? Or is it just more, hey, I'm not busy or this is what I want to do with my time right now and... You would write stories?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, when I had free time here and there, I would just write out. One of my things I used to do back then if I had a few free moments is I would head to my local coffee shop. There's a couple cool ones in town. Grab some coffee and sit there like old school style, pen and paper, and just sit there and try to write it down. And I could end up staying at some of those coffee shops all day just trying to write in different things, coming up with different things. Nowadays, things have changed more. It's more in front of a computer. There's a lot of advantages to doing it through the computer, through the phone, through all the technology we have. I used to love going to coffee shops, just sitting there with the journal and just trying to write something out.
SPEAKER_00:Getting
SPEAKER_03:that free coffee. Trying to look sophisticated so they'd come and notice me.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, an author. So how did you get into this topic? What made you kind of out of everything? Because there's so many things to write about. how did you get into just doing a book about wrestling?
SPEAKER_04:Right.
SPEAKER_01:Professional wrestling. You know, we got to, it's not like, you know, Nebraska. Yeah. Nebraska, you know, like wrestling. No, this is actual professional wrestling. You know, what you notice, you know, two guys in a ring, you know, in tights.
SPEAKER_03:Right. Yeah. The book's about professional wrestling in the world that is, you know, in it and all the things, professional wrestling. But I really got the idea once COVID hit and when COVID hit, I started, you know, I was at home all the time, especially during early days of COVID, trying to figure out what to do. So, you know, I got back into working out. I was starting to get on my machine, usually cranking out like 45 minutes to an hour a day. It was something I didn't do before COVID because I didn't have the time. I was trying to go down to town. I had to be at the office. You know, it totally changed a life. So I was looking for something that was easy to watch while I was working out that you could just go back to, easy. Periodic shows are kind of hard because if it's an hour long and, hey, I don't have an hour, I need to stop it because I got to get ready because I have to be on a Zoom or I got to meet with somebody or whatever the case is. So professional wrestling was kind of perfect in the way that you could watch it either in 15 minutes, 30 minutes, 45 minutes. You could just watch one match at a time and be like, okay, I watched that one match and then move on. So I was like, well, let me start watching old wrestling. So I went back and watched old wrestling pay-per-views and would just keep going periodically and follow the pay-per-views as I go through one pay-per-view over a span of two or three days and go to the next one. After watching enough of them, I'd be like, man, I should really do something with this because I still had a whole bunch of time on my hands. So I was like, why don't I write a book about professional wrestling?
SPEAKER_00:And so you're saying like old pay-per-views. Let's get to like, all right, what era... Because I think we both have the same era of watching wrestling, which is the Attitude Era. Were you watching that just that far back or further, 80s, 90s? Where were you at?
SPEAKER_03:Well, you know, I've been a lifelong fan. I've been following and seeing a lot of the classic stuff. But when I started this specific project... Chris Jericho was just on fire at that time. And I was a big Jericho-holic. I still am. And I was like, well, let me start from when Chris Jericho debuted on WWE. So I picked
SPEAKER_00:that as my... Okay, when he started in WWE. When he
SPEAKER_03:started in WWE or WWF at the time. So I picked that as my starting point. And I kind of started from there.
SPEAKER_00:The Y2J, the countdown. Oh, man, that was good stuff, bro.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I didn't want to go too far back because I'd watched a lot of the old ones multiple times. But yeah, I thought that was a good starting point for me.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah, and I tried to do the same thing around the same time because, I mean, at the time, we were still watching all wrestling on Peacock, right? Right. I think this was WWE Network. I think it was WWE Network when
SPEAKER_03:I started
SPEAKER_00:this. Oh, man, it was so... WWE Network, for those of you who don't know, so it was just this deep and wide, vast archive of every wrestling that there was, right? Because WWE or WWF at the time bought everybody up. They bought... All of their recordings. They bought all the WCW recordings. So you can watch everything. It used to be like you flip channels between WCW and WWF and check out what's going on. Yeah, I always remember growing up,
SPEAKER_02:it was USA Network for WWF and then WCW for on TBS.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, TBS.
SPEAKER_03:Was that where for the longest time?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So I did the same thing. I was trying to kind of flip back and forth. Like, all right, let me watch this Nitro thing. This is WCW. And then let me jump over here and watch the corresponding WWF, like Monday Night Raw. And that's just, it was too big of a task. But yeah, that's something that I really like to do at that time too.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, and it's still something that's carried over today. I mean, you know, I got in my morning workout today. Watched it, finished SmackDown from last night because I didn't get a chance to finish it. So put it on, you're by yourself. Like,
SPEAKER_02:okay. So are you watching reruns of matches or you're mainly sticking to the most recent?
SPEAKER_03:I mean, it depends how caught up I am, right?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, like when you're saying caught up, this is your first time watching those then.
SPEAKER_03:Like this morning, for example, was my first time watching the SmackDown from last night, you know?
SPEAKER_02:Gotcha.
SPEAKER_03:I can't watch all the rest of the night. It's on, I mean, what, four days out of the night?
SPEAKER_02:All the time. I didn't realize it's that. I thought it was just like a Monday Night Raw. Like this is the best time to be a fan because it's everywhere.
SPEAKER_00:Tuesday night is NXT, which we kind of went over this beforehand. We don't watch NXT, but it's there. It's like WWE's, what do you call it, minor league talents. Developmental show. Yeah, developmental show. So they bring up a lot of their guys that come up from there. And then Wednesday nights is AEW, which I don't watch AEW either. I
SPEAKER_03:still watch AEW.
SPEAKER_00:You still watch it? I still watch it. I was a lot more excited for it at the beginning, I'll tell you that. Because for us, it was like, oh, man, this is upstart company that's in a challenge WWE and make, you know, make all tides rise because competition is better programming. So I don't feel it's doing that anymore. So I don't really watch it.
SPEAKER_03:Right. So there's so much on TV. Right. And I can't just sit there and be watching all the time. Of course, we have a life and a family and. The wife wants to watch other things, too. It's just 100% understandable. And my daughter takes over the TV. Yeah, that's the thing. So I find a lot of the good time I get to watch this is when I get my morning workout in. I've got 35 minutes, 45 minutes. And now if I'll catch up and I'm caught up to everything, then I'll go back to the old pay-per-views and keep watching. Just so I can stay active.
SPEAKER_02:So with both of you, really, since you continue, and then maybe Jaime, chime in on your perspective. Like, I remember... about the time frame that I was watching, and I just, I shut wrestling off at a certain point. I'll tell you exactly the day I shut wrestling off.
SPEAKER_01:Did they get rid of all the Hispanics?
SPEAKER_02:No, but that would have gave me a good reason. Did you discover yourself? Yeah. Did you find out it wasn't real? No, that last one was why. So I remember being in elementary school, thinking this stuff is real, Come on, man. WWF was coming to Amarillo. My dad bought us tickets. I'm in the nosebleeds, but in Amarillo, it's only 5,000 seats, so nosebleeds is not that bad, right? And I had binoculars. It's open seating. Anyways, I had some binoculars, and I'm watching Brutus the Barber Beefcake punching millionaire... Ted DiBiase, right? And he's got him in the corner, and I put my binoculars to my eyes, and I'm watching, and those punches are just missing. And Ted DiBiase's head's just flying back, and I'm like, what the heck? And it destroyed me. So that was probably around fifth grade, fourth grade, fifth grade. And then after that, maybe if somebody, if I was at a friend's house and they had it on, it's not a big deal. But after that, I just lost all interest. All my little monos or my little figurines all went to the freaking toy box for the rest of their days. But yeah, I mean, that's mine.
SPEAKER_00:What year was
SPEAKER_02:that? Well, that would have been... Fifth grade, I would have been about 11 years old, so probably 90, 91, somewhere along
SPEAKER_00:that time. When did you realize that Arnold Schwarzenegger wasn't a
SPEAKER_02:robot? From Total
SPEAKER_00:Recall?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, when did you... That
SPEAKER_00:movies aren't real. I mean, that's the big argument for all those wrestling fans, is when people say, it's not real, why would I even watch that? I don't want to watch that, it's not real. It's like, yeah, well, movies aren't real, and everything,
SPEAKER_02:TV shows... Greg Stossel?
SPEAKER_00:Right. Yeah, it was back in the day. There's a few of those. There's a few of them.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so seeing that, you would almost get into arguments in elementary school. Like, no, it is real. They're blah, blah, blah. Santa is real. And you had arguments in your third grade or whatever, second grade.
SPEAKER_01:But I think you're missing the point of it. Like, it's entertainment. No, and that's cool. But it
SPEAKER_03:destroyed
SPEAKER_01:my...
SPEAKER_03:I think David's point is probably not... No, a
SPEAKER_01:lot of people have that point. A lot of people when they
SPEAKER_03:were young kids and they grow up and they finally realize that it's all just a big show, they kind of feel like betrayed because they believe that they were all in it. I remember when I was a kid watching it and I saw Ultimate Warrior getting cursed by Pomposhango and he was... vomiting up this vile green stuff. The fakest thing that you could possibly imagine. But I was there as like a little kid. I don't remember how old I was, maybe like seven or younger. Believing that it was all real. I was like, holy shit, is he going to be okay? Is he going to be all right? What's going to happen? Can somebody get a doctor out there? And then when you finally...
SPEAKER_01:I'm going to become a doctor.
SPEAKER_03:When that light hits, it's like, hey, that whole thing was just fake. There is a little bit of betrayment on there. But, you know, I think most wrestling fans get over that. Yeah. Oh, okay. Well, it's a show. And it's fun. It's still fun. And then they get back.
SPEAKER_01:So, I mean, so wrestling is when you're Hispanic, right? Growing up. And I was born in Mexico. So wrestling is big in Mexico, too. So they had movies, you know, El Santo, Mil Mascaras, Blue Demon. Like they had actual movies with their wearing the mask. And so you kind of grew up with that. And then I grew up in Dallas. So you had the Dallas Portatorium with the Von Erick. So when the movie came out, I was like, that's. it's a freaking homage to Dallas. Me and my brother were talking about it. And it's like, cause we went to the sportatorium to go see them. And so, I mean, we kind of followed that. And then I guess in the nineties, it got, it started getting bigger and bigger, right? That's when you started and produced like the NW, NWA, right? The NWO. Like they just, I mean, I think that's when I kind of dropped off is somewhere in the mid nineties because our whole fraternity was like, They would get together and watch every match, right? And I was like, okay, it's cool. I get it. But I'm like, I'm kind of over it. And I still followed it. And then it wasn't until probably in the 2000s when The Rock started getting bigger and bigger. And so my son kind of started getting into it. And so I was like, shit, I need to dust off all the old videos so we can start watching that again. So it's kind of like a roller coaster for me. specifically because in the 80s we watched it all the time you know late 80s in the 90s you know you go off to college you kind of don't watch it and then it picked up like somewhere between mid 90s to late 90s it was big business
SPEAKER_00:yeah and you missed you missed some good content there at that time like but i'm the same way like when i went to college i kind of stopped watching because yeah I was busy with other stuff. I mean,
SPEAKER_03:you're totally not alone in that. A lot of wrestling fans have come in and out of watching wrestling regularly. It's hard to keep up, and there's a lot of content out there, especially when you're busy, especially in college when you want to go out there and play to the rec or you're taking girls out on dates or you're studying. There's so many things that you're doing, and you also enjoy the social life aspect of it. It's real hard to keep up with it in college. I didn't really watch it in college. That's why I went back and watched all those pay-per-views that I missed on my college days because I never watched them before. They were all new to me.
SPEAKER_02:So like with you guys, what's your earliest memory of wrestling? Like what's the thing that comes to mind that got you into it?
SPEAKER_03:Well, for me, it was, I think I was about 10 years old. And my grandfather was very close to the end of his life. And he would pass on maybe within 30 days from this. But my birthday was coming up. But my mom and my tia and my tios and everybody would spend all the time in the hospital. Basically, he was in there for about a month saying goodbye to grandpa. The whole family did not, like, nobody was up for a big party, right? WWE was coming into town, and my parents, you know, they would always throw me a birthday party. They would throw all the kids. Everybody had their birthday party. It was just, you know, a thing that we did. And they said, well, you know, it's really, we're not, nobody's, we're not feeling up to it. I mean, we can't throw you a birthday party if you really want, but we know you like this wrestling stuff. You watch it on TV. They're coming to town. Would you rather, instead of us throwing you a birthday party, we'll just take you to the wrestling matches? I was like, That sounds 100 times better than a birthday party. It sounds like 100 times better. I was like, absolutely. So that was the first time they took me there when I was a kid. It was the first time I got to see it live. And it was just a house show, but I remember Jake the Snake was there and Hacksaw Jim Duggan, Earthquake, I think The Ultimate Warrior. It was just a fun show that really kind of got me all in from that experience.
SPEAKER_00:Interesting. How about you, MT? I think the earliest I remember wrestling was... was the, what would they call it, the war, the wrestling war, you know, WCW, the Monday Night Wars, you know, WCW and WWF at the time and me just flipping back and forth between channels to see what's going on. Like Jaime said, when the NWO came up, that was a big thing to watch and so I was always flipping between there and WWF. On WWF, it was DX. DX is coming up. Xbox is coming up. Like, I loved X-Pac and Kane when they were in that tag team together. I thought that was the coolest thing. But that was kind of my era and when I remember watching. There may have been prior to that. But for us, it was always a family thing too. It wasn't something that my mom would sit down and watch. But all the rest of the family, that was kind of the only time where, oh shit, we're all in the same room. We're all kind of watching the same thing. And mom's right there even though... She's maybe not watching, but she's, she's around us.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, I, I think you, so moms are kind of funny like that. Like they're around, like I will call my mom. I can call her right now and ask her what's going on with Dallas sports. And she'll tell me everything about Dallas sports. I can ask her, you know, she, she's kind of always around. And so she knows what's that. She knows that you love wrestling. She knows that because my mom did the same thing. She understood what was going on, and so we would all get together. So all the kids are in the living room. And even my dad, as much as he's not at all interested, he would find it so hilarious. He'd be laughing there at all the nuttiness of it. And so it does become like a family thing. But I think moms are cool in the fact that they take interest because they know you're interested, so they want to stay interested. within your circle you know what I'm saying so that's a good point I didn't even think about that
SPEAKER_03:so I think with professional wrestling even if you're not a fan of it at all when you go see it live like my wife of course I dragged her to a few wrestling shows and she did not want to go but then when she got there she was all about she was having a great time because it was very entertaining it's a spectacle they got the music they got the good looking people coming out there they're doing all these flips they're doing these bodies they're talking smack to each other it's got a little comedy to it you know you don't have to follow storylines when you just go there and watch it I think most people will We'll be, we'll be entertained.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Ray and your chapter one of your book is talking about the gimmicks and of wrestling. And I think the gimmicks is what is a big draw for, for people, whether they're really paying attention or kind of like Jaime's father, just kind of watching it from the side, but getting a kick out of the, whether you call it silliness or whatever. So
SPEAKER_00:I think, I think we talked about how like your book is, You don't need to read every chapter. You don't need to read it in order. But anybody that is not familiar with wrestling or has watched it, like David, I would say, you've probably already read it, but I'd suggest you read the gimmicks part first. Yeah, that's actually recommended, or
SPEAKER_02:you recommend that in the book, right?
SPEAKER_03:I think it sets up, you know, most of the hardcore fans will already know the gimmicks. But even with the hardcore fans, some of the feedback I've gotten is like, oh, it's fun to just read about the gimmicks and to try to even list more wrestlers that fall into that category of gimmick than I may have listed for you. But yeah, the gimmicks is the foundation. The story, you've got to have the characters. And out of the characters, you're making the stories. And back in the day, it used to be super easy to tell. There was the evil tax man versus the guy, the all-American hero. But as time progresses, and people kind of wanted more complex characters, some of the gimmicks progressed. But I think when you break down... any particular wrestler. I think nowadays, and this is what we do in the next chapter, which is the one directly after the gimmicks, the math and science of a wrestler, is because I think modern day, nobody's just one particular character. Most wrestlers are a combination of the traditional gimmicks, though. If you have them combine that, that's also something fun to think about. You'll see like, oh, I think of, you know, Pick a wrestler, Mercedes Monet or Will Ospreay or whoever. And you think, well, where do they fall into? What percentage of what gimmick and that gimmick? So, yeah, the characters are the foundation of it. And the gimmicks chapter was, I believe, we had to lay the foundation for the rest of the book. Just in case there are people out there that knew nothing about professional wrestling,
SPEAKER_00:there was. Yeah, one of the things, and I'm just going to pick a little bit. So one of the profession gimmicks that you had was Hillbilly Jim. So is being a hillbilly his profession or should he fall within a racial stereotype of a hillbilly?
SPEAKER_01:That's a good question.
SPEAKER_03:I mean, I would say he falls into both because I think he was like Megan Moonshine. That kind of is professional. I mean, maybe it's just him. You know what I'm saying? He's kind of using his hillbilliness to make himself a living. But is he a reservoir? Yeah, he's absolutely. I think we put him in the racial stereotypes one as well. Oh, did you? Yeah, I believe he did. Because a lot of these characters will
SPEAKER_02:cross over. And Ray kind of... Kind of alluding to that, so you have like this scorecard, I guess. I love that. A pie chart, which is really interesting. But how did you come up or what was your thought process in creating these categories for these wrestlers and then ranking or putting them out of 100% of their profile, 20% is this? And kind of give us the mindset that you had going into that.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, absolutely. When I was creating the book, I knew I wanted it to be a visual experience as well. I knew it wasn't something that I wanted people just to put on audio. I wanted people to have graphs. I wanted charts. I wanted... I wanted tables. I wanted illustrations. Yeah. I wanted all that stuff. So I knew I had to make some charts for it. And then when I was doing the gimmicks chapter, I was thinking like, well, these modern, like, like Hillbilly Jim's a great example. He is a bit of a rich stereotype, but he's also a bit of a profession. And you might be able to put him in a few other categories as well. So I was thinking, well, Let's take some of 30 of the most iconic wrestlers, guys you expect from like John Cena to Roman Reigns to Bruno San Martino, Ric Flair, Hulk Hogan, Undertaker, 30 of the real greats, and we're going to break down their careers in a number of ways. One, we're going to break it down is we're going to break down their essential gimmick, and what percentage they are of using the classic gimmicks to each one.
SPEAKER_02:And how did you come up with those percentages? Did you put it all on a spreadsheet and come up with some crazy formula? Did you use ChatGPT
SPEAKER_03:like David does? No, no artificial intelligence was used. And
SPEAKER_01:that's why I think, like this, when I was flipping through that... Guys are all about lists, I think. Lists, rankings. Like, we do that shit just for fun. And the fact that you went through it, man, that to me, I was like, man, this guy knows what he's doing. Like, I love that. Just take, for example, we're just going to read The Undertaker, right? You have 40% monster. Is that what it is?
SPEAKER_03:He's definitely a monster character. I mean, he's a big, fatty, goth. Yeah, he fits all the criteria for being a monster gimmick.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, 25% psychopath. 20% blue-collar tough.
SPEAKER_03:Right, he had his whole biker gimmick thing. He was kind of a psychopath when he was leading the ministry. He almost transformed his character into like a cult leader.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and then what is it, 5% Profession?
SPEAKER_03:Because at the end of the
SPEAKER_01:day, an Undertaker is... It's a profession. It's a profession. Yes, it is. So shouldn't it be more than five? No, because
SPEAKER_03:he doesn't lean on it
SPEAKER_01:a lot. Yeah, that's true. He comes out of a casket. He
SPEAKER_03:has evolved so much beyond what the simple basics
SPEAKER_01:is. And that music, I mean, when he comes on, you remember when he would just pop up behind people? Oh, yeah. Like, that is just... That's iconic. We use iconic all the time, but that is iconic.
SPEAKER_03:Some of his entrances, especially at the WrestleMania, were probably the best ever. You could just sit there and just watch the entrance and not even watch the match.
SPEAKER_01:That was great. And I think you have 10% comic book.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, because he's got some supernatural powers. He can make the lightning appear. He can make the lights go off. So he can do kind of extra-worldly things. And
SPEAKER_01:I think this is what probably took your book to another level for me. Because you give me a chart, I'm all about it. I mean, the NFL draft is coming up. I do a draft board. I, you know, research all that stuff. And so they give you this for every athlete. So if you're, if you're, if you like football and yeah, if you like, yeah, if you're a data driven person, this is perfect. And so when, for me, I was like, this is greatness. And like my little brother is a big wrestling fan and we haven't gotten to that because I gave him the book. that I got from you and also gave it to my sister because she's a big wrestling fan. And I need to call them and just kind of go through it because this is a good topic to discuss. I mean, this is something that you can argue about. Well,
SPEAKER_02:and that was going to be my question to you is since writing this book and it getting into people's hands and some being fanatics, have some challenged you on some of these percentages or kind of brought up like, hey, I think you really... Miss this, or I think you shorted him.
SPEAKER_03:No, I've talked to several podcasters that are strictly professional wrestlers and stuff like that. People have different opinions as far as what is there. So it's an inexact science because the world of wrestling is kind of... One of the other graphs we have on that math and science of a wrestler chapter is we're computing what we call golden time. Let me break it down real quick. We're saying, how long was wrestler X a champion? How long was he an active wrestler? By active wrestler, I mean, say he had a 10-year career. During that 10-year career, he may have taken off six months on his second year for a vacation, however much for injury. We computed to the time where he's just, and we subtracted all that off time and just figuring out how much is he actually an active character on wrestling how much is he actively like an active wrestler and then from there we figured well how much a percentage of that was he a heavyweight champion the major gold champion how much of how much of a percentage of his career did he spend as a middle level champion the intercontinental US title mid-level titles how many did he spend as a third tier champion if at all you know your third belts your TV titles things like that and then how much did he spend as a tag champion and And how much time did he spend out of his career holding the gold at all? So that took a lot of equations and math and a lot of research. And it was. And we had to cross-check things. And there's websites that you can use. And there's videotapes. And there's all these things that you can cross-check. But even then, like, OK, Ric Flair is the most easiest example. The WWE says he's a 16-time world champion.
SPEAKER_01:Some people
SPEAKER_03:say he's a 23-time world champion. I think in the book we put him down like a 21, because there's an inexact science to what counted as a title. Was that even a major title? And all that stuff. So sure, there's room for arguments in there, which I think is part of the fun for fans. Take a look at it, and by no means am I saying do not disagree with it. Go ahead, disagree with it and argue and be like, well, I think you got it wrong on this part. Well, because you should have counted that belt for Ric Flair. I get it. He's an exact.
SPEAKER_00:He's making that argument right now too, because Roman Reigns is, or no, I'm sorry. John Cena is possibly going to win his 17th championship. And they're saying WWE is saying, Oh, he's in a past flair. And flair is like, nah, he's, he's nowhere near. But what
SPEAKER_01:else would he say though? Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Some of those titles. exchanges and there's some title exchanges that were unauthorized
SPEAKER_01:well because there was a fight there you know between all of them right between the two the
SPEAKER_03:wrestlers just did a title exchange one time I think the wrestlers just did a title exchange on their own when they were overseas to help the local promotions over there sell tickets and all that stuff but that wasn't Like authorized by the NWA, the National Wrestling Alliance, like their corporate overseers. They used to lend talent out to these Japanese promoters, but they would still have to basically answer to their bosses back at home. But their bosses back at home didn't authorize that, so they didn't recognize that. So sometimes they don't recognize that. Title reign is a legit title reign. There's things like that. We break down Booker T's one of the guys, and sometimes he won the title. Because WCW back in the day used to have their tapings on TV. Well, sometimes he would be a tag team champion in a negative amount of days because they would film it in reverse order or something like that, which didn't make any logical sense. So we had to put some parameters on there. That's what we do in the chapter. We introduce all the parameters we're putting and kind of explain to people, like, here's why we're counting, here's what we're not counting, things like that. So, I mean, it's all up for discussion. It's all inexact. But I think we tried to... A lot of research was done. We double-checked everything. So I think... Who
SPEAKER_02:is it in the background that's deciding who's going to win that night?
SPEAKER_03:The promoter. Yeah. Whoever the promoter is, the head guy. And so like these major championships. Yeah, the promoter slash booker, whoever's in charge.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, because the booker is more the person who puts the thing together. But the promoter is like, I want this guy to win. This is who we're going to push. And then the booker figures out. The booker figures out a way to do it.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, it could definitely go down that way. The booker's just, here's the big picture, and then the booker's like, okay, here's how we get there.
SPEAKER_00:Sometimes the promoter is the booker, like Tony Khan. He is everything and anything to that company, and he decides everything and how it's going to
SPEAKER_03:happen. Yeah, I mean, there's different ways you could do it, but basically whoever's the guy in charge is going to decide who's going to, you know.
SPEAKER_01:Who did you have helping you kind of sort through all the data, sort through all the titles? Or was it just you doing everything?
SPEAKER_03:Just me, myself, and I. That's why the book took a long process. You know, I started during COVID and it didn't come out until recently. I mean, we're talking about like four years of off and on working. I would just pick it up and go back to it every now and again. That's impressive. Yeah. And the graphs one, I'm very proud of that chapter because it did take a lot of time.
SPEAKER_01:No, that's probably one of my favorite things about the book is... pie charts. Because it's easy, it's quick, you can look at it. I mean, like I said, guys argue about everything and anything. Actually, the argument that you and I got into or that at David's house was that can Snoop beat Can you beat Snoop in a boxing
SPEAKER_03:match? I think we were talking about how tough is Snoop. I still stand by it. You underestimate Snoop Dogg. He's a DOJ
SPEAKER_01:man. He weighs 100 pounds, dog.
SPEAKER_00:He dropped the elbow
SPEAKER_01:on. Yeah. He's
SPEAKER_02:got a real bony elbow, man. That's straight up bone going
SPEAKER_00:into that. Terrible argument. Shane McMahon
SPEAKER_03:blew his quads. I think it was The Miz that he dropped the elbow on, maybe.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, whoever Shane McMahon was fighting, he was in the ring and he tries to jump over a guy and he blows out both his quads.
SPEAKER_03:Well, you remember in AEW when he did a frog splash? That's right. It was like the worst looking frog splash ever.
SPEAKER_00:He came down. He like squatted way down on the turnbuckle and then jumped. Snoop definitely was not helping
SPEAKER_03:my argument on
SPEAKER_00:his
SPEAKER_03:toughness.
SPEAKER_01:That was a terrible argument. Um, so let's talk about, uh, you have, uh, MT, you had mentioned that.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, the chapter on the Kaufman's. I think, uh, I think that's a great chapter. Like, cause again, this is, it breeds like discussion and arguments and what you think. So I wanted to read a couple of the Kaufman's and then just get the other guys in the room and see what, what they, uh, they thought of that.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00:So, um, all right, so let's see. Um, Let's try this one. So outstanding fight in a motion picture. So we have Hulk Hogan versus Sylvester Stallone in Rocky III. John Cena versus Vin Diesel in Fast 9. Dwayne Johnson versus the Rebels in the Rundown. Dave Bautista versus Chung Ting Chi in Master Z Ip Man. I really didn't see that one. Good job there. Is that good? My pronunciation is flawed. The
SPEAKER_03:fight scenes were really great.
SPEAKER_00:Roddy Piper versus Keith David in They Live.
SPEAKER_03:This is the fight scene featuring a wrestler.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, this is the fight scene featuring a wrestler. Okay, so let me ask the other guy. Jaime, do you remember any of these movies? And what's your vote?
SPEAKER_01:So, yes, I remember They Live. I thought that was... I mean, when that movie came out, well, at the time, you know, at that age, I think I was a pretty big wrestling fan. So anytime... Hulk Hogan would come out. You're like, hey, that's Hulk Hogan. That They Live movie was really interesting. But I don't remember much of it. I
SPEAKER_00:don't think I've ever seen that movie, but I really want to see it.
SPEAKER_01:The John Cena versus Vin Diesel. John Cena is just a huge person. You know what I'm saying? Just seeing two big-ass people go against each other is pretty cool to see. But if I'm going to say the most outstanding, you know, I was born in the 70s. So it's got to be Hulk Hogan for me
SPEAKER_00:just because it's, I mean, just
SPEAKER_01:how massive he was. And Stallone's not that big. So when he just picks him up and throws. Yeah. The Yip Man, I guess. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love those movies, but I mean, I don't think that was that memorable for me. I just, I love classic movies, so it has to be Rocky.
SPEAKER_00:All right, David, have you seen any of these or heard of any of these
SPEAKER_02:movies? I definitely watched the Rocky one, and to me, the one that stands out top of mine is that Rocky, the Rocky, what, four? Was it Rocky? No, not Rocky IV. It was Rocky II,
SPEAKER_01:wasn't
SPEAKER_02:it?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think it was II.
UNKNOWN:No, it was III.
SPEAKER_02:Oh,
SPEAKER_01:okay. It was three?
SPEAKER_03:It was Rocky III. When he was fighting Mr. T, right? Yeah. Yeah. In the pre-fight. Hulk Hogan. Hulk Hogan was in the same movie. That's why they met each other. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Well, you're all wrong. It's Dwayne The Rock Johnson versus the Rebels in the rundown. And I know... I'm a huge... I know... I'm a huge rock mark.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Like... In wrestling terms, I'm a mark for The Rock, for Dwayne Johnson, whatever. Anything that he does, any movie he's in, it's pretty fucking cool. But that was his first entrance into action movies. Besides, yeah, he had already done The Mummy, I think, and he had maybe done something else. But the thing about that I remember about that movie is that it was a handoff. Because at the beginning of the movie, The Rock is going into a club... And he passes Arnold Schwarzenegger, and Arnold tells him, have fun in there. Like, passing the torch, like, you're the new action star.
SPEAKER_03:It's one of the better rock movies.
SPEAKER_00:It is. It really is. It really is. And the guy that he's in there with, what's his name? Ryan Austin Green? No, that's not it.
SPEAKER_03:No, it's not David Silver. Sean William Scott? I knew it was a three-name. Yeah,
SPEAKER_01:Stifler. Yeah, Sean William Scott.
SPEAKER_03:You know, I love that fight scene. When I was doing that chapter, I've seen all the movies before. I would went back and watch them all again. And then I would even go back and just go on YouTube and just watch the fight scene to make sure. I mean, that rock fight scene... One, I don't even know if it was as good as the one with the football players at the beginning. The one with the football players at the beginning was pretty fantastic. Why didn't you choose that one then? Well, because I think this one was the better one, but it was also kind of super unrealistic. It had like... Rock was just basically doing flying kicks all over. I mean, it was... It defied physics and gravity. It's like, okay, that's not humanly possible.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that was Rock with hair, right?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. It was really...
SPEAKER_01:It was, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And... We'll give a spoiler. I gave the award to John Carpenter's classic sci-fi, They Live, with Rowdy Rod Piper. If you go back and look at the fight on YouTube, five, seven minutes, whatever it is, it's very gritty, very realistic, and the incorporation of wrestling moves just had to be acknowledged. They really used all these wrestling moves and made it look like a legitimate fight. I
SPEAKER_01:think we watched it at the movies. Somebody's
SPEAKER_03:Gonna Die Fight.
SPEAKER_02:Wasn't that like 1985
SPEAKER_03:or something like that? It was in the 80s. Yeah, I think I went to the movies to watch it. I
SPEAKER_02:want
SPEAKER_03:to say like
SPEAKER_02:late 80s. Because Roddy Piper's in his classic white t-shirt with the print on it and then that kilt.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I think it was 88.
SPEAKER_02:Not in the movie. Not in the movie. Oh, okay. There was
SPEAKER_01:a movie or a show where he's wearing his... His outfit that he wears for wrestling. Yeah, he probably came on Tool Time
SPEAKER_03:or something. Right. I mean, Rod, he's done a whole bunch of
SPEAKER_01:appearances on TV. He's got to get paid, dog. He's got to get that check. Nothing
SPEAKER_03:wrong with those guys' pay. I say this was his best work on film.
SPEAKER_01:I got to check it out, yeah. Have you not seen that? I've never seen it. Yeah. I've seen clips of it. Man, it's really good. I think I've only watched it like two or three times. I think we went to the movies to watch it. And I've seen it one other time and it's been a while.
SPEAKER_03:I have the Blu-ray. I can't. It's part of my research. I had orange. It's like, why are we watching all these movies or feature wrestlers? Like I got to do
SPEAKER_00:research.
SPEAKER_01:That's awesome.
SPEAKER_00:I love that when they incorporate like the wrestlers moveset into the movie that they're in. Yeah. And the one I remember also is Sasha Banks in the Mandalorian. She's in the Mandalorian and she's, I don't remember what she gave the other Mandalorian. The
SPEAKER_03:bank
SPEAKER_00:statement or whatever. The bank statement. The crack
SPEAKER_03:back or something. What's
SPEAKER_00:the one where she shoots off the top of the turnbuckle and gives him both knees?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, Meteora.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, the Meteora or something like that. So that's always fun when you see those things. They use their move set like, oh, that's a move that he uses in the ring and it's in a movie.
SPEAKER_02:Now, Ray, kind of piggybacking off of females, you do write a full chapter on females in wrestling. provide a little bit of context of how women became part of the show.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you for listening. If you enjoyed this episode and you'd like to help support the podcast, please share it with others. Post about it on your social media and or leave a rating and review. To catch all the latest from us, you can follow us on Instagram and X. So thanks again, and we'll see you next time.
