Episode 013 - "She-Valry Chronicles - Why Women Change their Styles: Vanity, Fashion, and Self-Expression"

Guests, Lyanna & Leti, give some insight of women and why they change their styles more than men do.

• Beauty Standards for Women
  • 90s - Focus is on thin
  • 2000s - New Standard is Curvy
• Body Image
• Face & Physical Features
• Is it more vanity, utilitarianism, or humility?
• They answer the question of does makeup give you confidence.
• Women and the Workplace
• Hair Color
• Receiving Compliments
• Socio-Ecological Models

Issue a Verdict.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02: 0:01

If by some chance, some stroke of luck, or some act of God you have stumbled upon this broadcast, you are listening to The Chivalry Chronicles with your host, DLH, David, and me, Jaime. I hope you're ready, because I know we are. So let's get into it. And we're back. Here we're doing a quick chivalry short. Previously on your Chivalry Chronicles, we did an episode on why men cling to their style, vanity, fashion, and self-expression. And I had mentioned it to my daughter about it. And she started telling me why women do and all this. And I was like, hold on, wait, wait, wait, wait. Let's save it. And I want to put you on the podcast. So joining me today is are my lovely wife, Leti, and my lovely daughter, Liana. Welcome to the show.

UNKNOWN: 1:27

Yay!

SPEAKER_02: 1:27

Thank you. So, we did a show on why men cling to their styles, and Liana, you went on to say that women do or don't cling to their styles. Are you saying they have to? Get back in that mindset.

SPEAKER_00: 1:46

So... What I think is that women change their styles a lot more often than men do. But I also think one of the most obvious reasons for that is just societal norms and our beauty standards. And I think those change much more quickly for women than they do for men.

SPEAKER_02: 2:13

So what are the beauty standards for women?

SPEAKER_00: 2:16

Well... I'd say like you see in the 90s and the 2000s, women want to be skinny. They want to wear the low-raised jeans and the tiny skirts. And the focus is on being thin. And then as we kind of got into the 2000s and into the 2010s, now we see that the new beauty standard is that we want to be curvy. BBLs start becoming more popular. People are removing... their floating ribs to make their waist accentuate their hips. And

SPEAKER_02: 2:51

for the audience, what are BBLs?

SPEAKER_00: 2:56

I don't know the actual term. I think it's like a Brazilian butt lift. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 3:01

Right. Okay. Yeah. Because we throw all these words around and some people are like, I don't know what a BBL is, but you're too scared to ask because then it's like, ah, you're an idiot. You don't know what it is. But I think it's Brazilian butt lift.

SPEAKER_00: 3:13

Yes. I want to say you're right.

SPEAKER_02: 3:14

Okay, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00: 3:17

But yeah, I think that is just like the weight and the body image portion of that. And I think the other portion comes with your face and your physical features and which ones are considered beautiful and which ones are considered not flattering. And so I think now we have kind of a more diverse definition of beauty And I think we have more actresses and more celebrities coming out who are kind of the unconventional kind of pretty. But I do think that we are also seeing other actresses who are that stereotypical.

SPEAKER_02: 4:00

Sorry, there's a little commotion in the office right now. It's not so friendly confines. But go ahead. Continue.

SPEAKER_00: 4:11

We see actresses like Sidney Sweeney or like Megan Fox where they are just your conventionally like beautiful woman. And then when we see women like that, people want to kind of put them in a box. And we saw that a lot with Megan Fox in the Transformers movies and then Jennifer's body where they just wanted to play kind of a hot character. young girl. And we see that a lot with Sydney Sweeney now where they're casting her in these roles that accentuate her figure and just her appearance and not so much her abilities as an actor. So yeah, I feel like women feel the need to change their appearance more to fit in with those beauty standards.

UNKNOWN: 5:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 5:03

Okay. I had also mentioned on the podcast that we did about my wife, Leti, who's here, that you get up every morning and you're done up every day, regardless of whether we go out or not. Is that something that you do for yourself? Is that something that you're just used to doing so you just keep doing it? How did that start and why is it the way it is?

SPEAKER_01: 5:31

I think initially it started off for going out and then it morphed into just doing it for myself. So I think most days I get up and I go about my normal beauty slash makeup routine like I always would, whether I'm going to work or going to Target or heading out. But I think a lot of it is just now at this point in my life is for me, just to feel good, not for to impress anybody in particular, but just for myself.

SPEAKER_02: 6:05

Okay, so on the episode that we did, we discussed, we kind of narrowed down to three options, which was vanity, utilitarian, and humility. What you were describing, was it more vanity or utilitarian, or is there a separate, completely different, I guess, generalization or... I guess, different options that women have? Because we were pretty simple. We just did three. Is there different ones that y'all do or y'all just stick with vanity? And do you even do utilitarian, humble, humility, that type of stuff? I mean, is it always, I need to be done up?

SPEAKER_01: 6:50

So I think that Vanity, yes. So what Liana was referring to with the different styles and the lower cut jeans and the small skirts and that era is definitely about vanity. And even now with embracing curves, which is great, but it's also vanity.

SPEAKER_02: 7:10

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 7:11

And so I think that something that happens... As you get older. So I mentioned earlier that I would make sure that I was done up to leave the house. Right. And so now I'm doing it not only when I leave the house, but just for myself. And I think that part of it is just a level of confidence that maybe happens as you mature, that you just want to feel confident, whether you're out in public or you're just at home, just a level of comfort with yourself and confidence within yourself. And I think that that is, that also plays a role in. how you are perceived, whether it's in public or in general, right? A level of confidence is attractive. And I think that that is also part of our changing styles is that you can change what you're wearing, but are you confident in what you're wearing and you wear it well with that level of confidence, it has to go together. So I think that that's, that also plays a role. I don't know, non, what do you think?

SPEAKER_00: 8:14

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think me and mom are kind of opposites because I kind of do the bare minimum.

SPEAKER_02: 8:23

So utilitarian.

SPEAKER_00: 8:25

Yeah. Chances are, if I'm going to study or I'm going to run errands, I kind of throw on something and I don't put on makeup. But I think that's also just because I've become more comfortable with not wearing makeup on the other spectrum of that. And it's not that I don't love makeup because I do. And I think it has some really great, it's a really great way to boost your confidence and to kind of, you know, sometimes mask insecurities, but other times it's used to enhance your features that you already like. So I think makeup is a great way to do that. And that definitely plays into vanity. Um, Because I know when I go out at night or I go to an event, I always put on makeup. And that does give me confidence.

SPEAKER_02: 9:15

Right. Well, to add context, you're a college student. And for the most part, I mean, you're studying or you're going to class or, you know, doing the stuff that a college student would do that really doesn't, or I assume it doesn't really lend itself to, I need to get done up. Mm-hmm. Whereas Leti, you're professional. So you pretty much have to for the most part, right? For work. And then on the weekend, you just continue it. Right. Because now it's a routine. I assume. I'm assuming this. So if I'm wrong, let me know.

SPEAKER_01: 9:51

However, comma.

SPEAKER_02: 9:53

However.

SPEAKER_01: 9:54

So Nan and I, her... Beauty routine takes a lot longer. Let's be fair than mine. So she said, although mom and I are total opposite, the truth of the matter is my daily routine, whether I'm going to work or I'm around the house is exactly the same. And it takes maybe five to seven minutes to quote unquote, put my face on, right. To get my makeup on. So my beauty routine is, is maybe a quarter of the time that it takes. When Nan does her makeup, it looks amazing. And she takes a lot of time to do it. My case is minimal. So if I were taking 30 minutes, it wouldn't be every day either.

SPEAKER_02: 10:40

And that's something that we kind of discussed on the podcast because DLH had asked, okay, skin regimens. And we're like, yeah, we wash our face. And he's like, no, no, no, no. You know, astringents and like stuff to, take the oil off and then put the oil back on. And then, so I know that Liana, you have a very strict regimen or that's, I've seen the stuff that you buy. I've seen you sit there and go through it. What do you do like specifically? How do you go from step one to step 30 or whatever, however many steps you do?

SPEAKER_00: 11:14

I think it does depend by the day. Sometimes I'm feeling a little frisky and I'll do a little bit more, but yeah, Usually in the morning, it has to be quick because either I'm getting up to go to a clinical shift, which is a good eight hours and I'm up at four in the morning, or I'm getting up at six to go to class. And so I just, I wash my face, I put moisturizer on, and then usually that's it. I put on some chapstick, I put on my clothes and I'm out the door. I think the longer routine comes in the evening when I'm winding down. And that's also a way that I kind of You know, like self-care, like relax myself. And that is when I like, I take my shower, I wash my face. Maybe I'll do a face mask. I'll put on some moisturizer. Sometimes I put on face oil and then I have my chapsticks. Like I do all of my stuff. So I think that is what takes the longest is what goes on in the evening.

SPEAKER_02: 12:13

Okay. And how did it start and why did it start? And when did it start?

SPEAKER_00: 12:21

I think skincare first started, I'd say maybe in like late elementary school, early middle school when I would use mom's like Noxzema and that was just like a little kind of face wash thing. That was my first face wash. And then as I got into middle school, I started using face wash every day. But that's also because middle school comes with puberty and body changes and you start to get pimples and acne. And so- part of preventing that and taking care of your skin is washing your face. So I think that was a big thing. And also to do with vanity, like you don't want to have blemishes on your face when you go to school every day. So that was another reason. And middle school is also when, you know, me and my friends started getting into makeup. And so you wear makeup to school and I wore it to school every day. Well, you

SPEAKER_02: 13:12

were in dance. And so you had to wear more makeup than you probably wanted to,

SPEAKER_00: 13:17

but yeah. So, I mean, I learned how to do makeup pretty quick and then I just kind of carried that on. And I don't think it was until my junior or senior year that I started to kind of tone down the makeup. And that was just because I had dance practice in the morning. So I didn't want to put on makeup and sweat over it. And that was when I started kind of becoming more comfortable with, you know, not wearing a full face of makeup every day and maybe just putting on some blush and chapstick and calling it a day. So, yeah. I do think that it's kind of a balance because in middle school, it's a big time where you're very insecure about everything. And I had the braces and I was changing schools.

SPEAKER_02: 14:00

Yeah, you went to like four schools in four different years consecutively.

SPEAKER_00: 14:06

Yeah, I was... changing a lot. There's a lot of changes like in your body and then also like socially and you're having to make new friends. So I think that's why you kind of pile on the makeup to make yourself feel confident when you're putting yourself in those new situations. So I think in that case, it's very vanity driven, but then as I've gotten older, it's kind of more into utility as you're, you're saying like mom is in education. And so, um, a big thing in the professional world is that if you're a woman and you don't wear makeup to work, you don't look put together. And that's not a issue that men experience because y'all don't wear makeup unless you want to. And in that case, people are like, cool. But if a woman comes to work without makeup, it's like, ooh. Have you gone to work

SPEAKER_02: 14:57

without makeup? And somebody said, oh, hey, how's it going? Because I know you had mentioned that So you were home and the neighbor came over and you were getting ready and you weren't done. What was that story

SPEAKER_01: 15:11

again? Oh, so I went to go take the trash out, I think is what it was. And I always put my makeup on before I put my work clothes on. So I had gone out with my makeup on, but like my sweats from my nightclothes outside. And so he was confused. He said, oh, so... Are you going to work today? And then he looked down at my outfit or not. So I think that, yes, to go to work as a woman in today's society, you do have to look put together. And part of that is your makeup, right? And I do feel like vanity is, Um, it's more vanity and less utilitarianism when you get, when you are a woman and you get into your professional, um, life is that it's expected. Um, and so women are judged right based off of what they look like and how, how the more put together you appear, the more intelligent you are perceived to be the more organized, the more professional. So, um, I think that it's almost the vanity and the utilitarianism have to come together because it's part of what we do as our profession is to look a certain way. And it's unfair that we can't get ready in five minutes and take a shower and get out and be about our day, but it's reality. And so I think that women do change their look based off of the phases in their lives and their career changes, because the way that I would dress, like for example, I just recently went from the classroom into an office job. I can't wear the same thing that I wore in the classroom necessarily to my office job. My office is a lot more professional, so I'm dressing up more in its dress pants and heels versus more, I guess you would say utilitarianism, but still looking professional. Nice in the classroom where I could wear, you know, a nice sweater and some leggings and some tennis shoes to work and fit right in. It was totally fine. Whereas at the office, it's not. So I think that that also plays a role when you're talking about how women change their look over time and what prompts that. So that's just my perspective.

SPEAKER_02: 17:38

Okay. So, so we dealt with the, the vanity portion of it, and you talk about your skincare and your face, putting your face on and stuff like that. Okay, as far as coloring your hair, how do you, like, how does that come about? Because I've never considered it and never thought about it, but both of you have done it a couple of times in the past couple of years, right? I guess three or four years, you have done it a couple of times. How do you decide on that? Like, what makes you say, you know what, I think I'll, Do my hair back to my normal color? I think, Liana, you had like a more lighter color at some point. And here recently, last year, you went back to darker. I mean, how do you make that decision? Like, how do you do that? How do you just go, I think I want to go back to normal, you know? Like, how do you make those decisions or what prompts it? Like, I'm curious because I've never gotten up and go, I have black hair, right? So I never go, I think I'm going to go auburn. You know, or I think I'm going to go, you know, a little bit of little reddish tint in my hair. Like I've never thought about that. So I'm curious on what guides that decision or do you look at a picture? I know mom one year saw Sharon Osbourne and loved her hair color. That's right. I went through the Sharon Osbourne phase. Tore the picture off the magazine and took it to your hairdressers and I want this color. So did something prompted? Did you go, I think I look better in darker hair? I mean, how does that come about? That's a good question.

SPEAKER_00: 19:07

Yeah. I mean, well, if I go back to the start of when I first started coloring my hair, that was my freshman year of college. Yeah. That was also during COVID. And I was just very restless and I had nothing to do. And I told mom. I'm going to dye my hair red. And she said, no. And I said, no, I'm going to do it. And she said, at least wait until you come home. Um,

SPEAKER_02: 19:36

so you just wanted to do some breakout of something.

SPEAKER_00: 19:38

Yes. Okay. And then after that was when I was like, okay, maybe I'll do, I'll tone it down, get rid of the red, do some highlights and just kind of try to naturally, um, enhance my hair color. And also because I've seen mom with her highlights and she's had highlights for a really long time. So I was like, okay, let me try that. And I did that for three years. And then this year, I think it was this year, it was before my birthday in August that I was like, well, my highlights were going out and it's not that they looked bad because our hairdresser does them to where they blend in really nicely. But I was like, I kind of want to go back. I think it was just that I wanted to change. I had had the highlights for so long that I was like, I don't really remember what I look like with my natural, just

SPEAKER_03: 20:29

dark

SPEAKER_00: 20:30

hair color. And kind of compounded with that, I didn't want to have to get touch-ups on my hair color. Do

SPEAKER_02: 20:38

you think it's because there was a phase change? Like you graduated from high school and you... kind of want to reinvent yourself for college. And then it just so happened that you graduated from college and you wanted to reinvent yourself again. I'm speculating, but does that make sense? Because it kind of looks like you graduated from high school, you changed your hair color. You graduated from college, you changed your hair color. Now you're in nursing school. I mean, correct

SPEAKER_00: 21:05

me if I'm wrong. Yeah, that's so true. I didn't even notice that. But yeah, I mean, I think also like, I thought of it in the nursing perspective and what I'm going to be doing for the next few years. And I was like, well, if I'm not like that keen on keeping up with the highlights and stuff, like if I can just throw it back and like, if it's one color, it kind of looks more put together when I put it up in a ponytail or in a clip or whatever. I think the biggest thing for me was having it just be low maintenance so that I can just, you know, Keep my natural hair color. So if

SPEAKER_02: 21:44

it would grow out, it doesn't change your look. It just

SPEAKER_00: 21:47

keeps it. Yeah,

SPEAKER_02: 21:48

because

SPEAKER_00: 21:48

I've had those times in college where my highlights would be growing out and it would look pretty bad. And I was like, oh. But I was like, yeah, I'm not going home for another three months. So I'll just wait it out.

SPEAKER_01: 22:03

And I don't allow you to go to anybody else other than our guy. Yeah,

SPEAKER_00: 22:06

and I would be scared too. Yeah. I think I just wanted to go back so that I didn't have to mess around with my hair too much.

SPEAKER_02: 22:14

Right. Okay, so the same question for you, Wody. When you change it now, that's a little bit more, I guess. I mean, you just got a new job.

SPEAKER_01: 22:27

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 22:29

But did you change your hair for it? Did you try to reinvent yourself?

UNKNOWN: 22:32

No.

SPEAKER_01: 22:34

I think that the reinvention came more with my wardrobe than anything else. My hair's been the same. But now, again, getting older, the grays are coming out. So instead of going lighter with my hair, I'm going a little darker, a little warmer. So Nan and I are going back to the darker tones now. So I think that it's not just... am I trying to reinvent myself? It's women need to also stay looking youthful. Right. And so keeping the grays out also helps with my confidence a little bit, but that's another thing that I have to maintain now.

SPEAKER_02: 23:20

And you're going back tomorrow.

SPEAKER_01: 23:23

Yes. I've

SPEAKER_02: 23:27

told the story and both of you know this story, but my dad, um, I went home to Dallas, and I see my parents, and then my dad wears a cowboy hat most of the time, takes his cowboy hat off, and he is buzzed at like a zero. Like he is completely shaved, shaved head. And then I'm like, wow, because that's not normal. That's not his normal look. And then he gets up and goes outside and does something, and I lean over to my mom, and I said, you know, What's up with the old man? What's up with, you know, what's going on? And she said, he started getting gray hair. And so he didn't want to deal with it. So he shaved it all off. I mean, that's a little extreme, but I'm like, man, which I would, I mean, I don't really think of my dad as, you know, somebody that's vain, but man, that kind of changed my thoughts about it. He is a little showy and a little flashy, but he didn't want gray hair. So he just cut the whole thing

SPEAKER_01: 24:32

off. It got to him. Oh, my

SPEAKER_02: 24:34

God. Okay. So we dealt with the hair. We dealt with the face. We dealt with the wardrobe. Right? Is there anything else that you think drives how women kind of change their look? Have you just, you know, kind of settled on the fact that that's the way life is? Is there any part of you that wants to buck the system and go, because some women do that, and just... not want to follow kind of the standard or what we perceive as a standard? Is there any part of you that's like, I'm not falling for it. I'm going to do my own thing. I'm going to do what I want. Or is it too much pressure to continue to do it because you've always done it and everyone around you has done it? The patriarchy, you know, pushing their will on you.

SPEAKER_01: 25:28

Well, I think that what we've spoken about earlier is that a lot of our, when we have quote unquote reinvented ourselves or changed our look, it's because of a change in our lifestyle, right? So Nan said she changed her looks when it came to her hair and even her makeup routine based off of, is it going to be functional for my daily life, right? Like as a student and now morphing into a nursing student and now being going into full-time hospital work? Like, is it going to blend nicely with my lifestyle and can I maintain it to a certain extent? And so I think that we've, we're trying to find a happy medium between what works for us personally and what is expected in society. And I think that when you, you veer too far from that, from being who you are, then you do want to buck the system. So I think that if you find a happy medium that you're comfortable with and like non said on some days, she just, she's not going to put on makeup, but she's taking care of her skin and she's taking care of her hair. Right. So she still looks like she's taking care of herself and she still has a level of confidence that she's portraying, but it doesn't all depend on just her makeup. Right. Yeah. Putting on a full face.

SPEAKER_02: 26:48

Well, I think for the most part, Liana, you're, You are put together. I know I, I overheard you talking to my sister and my sister's like, Liana, you're so photogenic. And that's true. I mean, a lot of, I think both of you have a great smile and it's like a, there's a show, you know, how I met your mother that Barney, every time they take a picture of him, it's always perfect. Like it doesn't matter. He could be drunk and they take a picture and he's always got the, the great smile. I think both of y'all have that. So do you, You know, is that what, you know, when people say, you're really photogenic, do you go, yeah, it's my skin routine? You know, or is that, do you attribute it to anything? Or do you like, you know, because I think it does matter. You're doing all this and then you get some compliments. I know guys are terrible at getting compliments. You know, we try to downplay it. You know, a nice shirt, I just grabbed it out of the back of the, you know, closet.

UNKNOWN: 27:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 27:47

You never say, hey, thanks. It's hard to go, hey, thanks. Guys are more like, yeah, it's just a piece of crap. Just put it on. But is there something that you think that, is there a reason why you continue doing it, I guess is what I'm getting at? Because you do get compliments, I would assume, about the way you look or you're photogenic and that drives you to keep doing it. I mean, I guess I'm trying to figure out if it's a really, really, it's a big hassle or do you enjoy doing it? I mean, is it just because of something that you enjoy? I don't know. Like, I guess I'm trying to figure out if it's, if you feel like it's imposed.

SPEAKER_00: 28:41

I think in terms of compliments, it's nice to get compliments, especially when you have put a lot of, effort into the way that you look so I think a lot of the times if somebody gives me a compliment I think especially when it's a woman or one of my friends or a girl I think I take those a lot more highly than if it's a man I think men are just very lazy with their compliments. What the hell? I don't care to hear them. Wow. I think that women

SPEAKER_02: 29:09

are

SPEAKER_00: 29:11

so good at like taking something small. Being very specific. Yeah. Like noticing like, oh my gosh, you did your eyeliner today. Or like one of my friends, when I got my hair cut and dyed, he was like, and he's a man.

SPEAKER_02: 29:25

Oh, I thought you just said

SPEAKER_00: 29:27

that. I think he had a very interesting compliment that I was like, that usually doesn't come up. Wow. I agree.

SPEAKER_02: 29:52

they don't want anything from you.

SPEAKER_00: 29:54

Yeah. That's another very part of that. Like they just want to like uplift you and it's kind of just like a, a girlhood thing. And I think one of the ways you reciprocate that is you give them a compliment back. So it's kind of just like you're giving compliments to each other.

SPEAKER_01: 30:09

It's good energy.

SPEAKER_00: 30:10

Yeah. You exchange those and it's awesome.

SPEAKER_02: 30:13

Yeah. I read a, I think it was an article or it was in a book somewhere, but that, that men need to start doing that because I've talked to, to, to let the, about this. Like I, I find it so fascinating when women compliment each other because men don't do that. What you're just stating, like, Oh, you did your, you did your eyelashes. Oh, your eyebrows look on point. Oh, you know, God, your makeup looks really good. I know one of our friends, she said, I, every time I hear that, I'm like, how would you think of that? But she said, God, you know, it was such a bad day and that, and I look so cute. I look so cute today. And they just went to hell. And I was like, what? But, but stuff like that, like it's, I don't know. I'm like, why would you like, how do you think about that? But, but anyway, in the, in the article, it said men need to be more, complimentary of other men and I have tried it I know in our office I don't know you see a lot of people interviewing a lot of young young guys in suits and stuff like that and I do I guess because I'm older now and when you're in your 20s you just don't think about it but you know I will say hey you're looking good like nice suit love what you're wearing and and I do try to do that, but it's sometimes it's, it's not as, as it doesn't flow as well, but, but I have tried to, you know, kind of, you know, have, have that, I guess that thought that, you know, we need to compliment each other more because we don't get a lot of compliments, right? Women, I think women get just showered with them and men, you get one compliment, you don't know what to do. You're like, that's what I was saying earlier. They're like, uh, okay. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. But, Anyway, I do find that, I do find it, I don't know, I do get fascinated by women when they talk to each other and they'll sit there and talk about like, oh my God, I love your shoes and stuff like that. Men don't do that, you know? And it's just to me, that's a little, it's so different. So we have explored the why, why, I guess so we do agree that women do change their look more than men. And you think that it's more self-imposed or society-imposed?

SPEAKER_00: 32:55

I think it's a mixture of both. I think at least in my school brain right now, I think of the socio-ecological model where you start with the individual and there are things like your values and your beliefs that affect you. your actions, and then you have your community, like your family, the people who are close to you. And then you go out and you have like the institutions you're a part of, whether it's a school, whether it's your job, your church, your gym, whatever. And then you kind of get bigger than that. You have policy, you have social norms. So I think it's a mixture of all of those things. Cause you know, we have consumerism that targets women. A lot of the time we have our gender norms. We have, um, our beauty standards, but then as mom and I talked about, we also have like your individual beliefs and how you perceive yourself to be beautiful. And, you know, if you like presenting yourself a certain way, you're going to keep doing it because it makes you feel good. And like you said, if you get compliments on it, you're probably going to want to keep doing the same thing. So I don't think it's just like one or the other. I think it's a lot of intermingling of all of those.

SPEAKER_02: 34:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 34:11

Yeah, I would have to agree. I think that it does. The affirmation from society is nice, like through the compliments. And honestly, if you look more put together, you will probably climb that ladder a lot quicker than if you show up not looking put together. I think that it also has an economical benefit.

SPEAKER_03: 34:37

to

SPEAKER_01: 34:38

it or economic benefit to it because there have been studies that have talked about what is it just the level of attractiveness, whether it's male or female and how they are able to rise through the corporate ladder a lot faster than somebody who isn't now, is that fair? Absolutely not. But there is a perception, but there is a perception that if you are put together, that that also translates to other aspects of your life. Right. So, um, so I think that that is, um, I guess you asked about societally imposed versus self-imposed. I think that that society affirming, yes, you're making the right choice. Now look at, you've gotten this promotion and you're moving here and you're getting compliments. So I think it's, it's also inter interwoven with what makes you feel good. Right. Uh, and so I don't see it as an imposition. I think I'm having fun with it. I have fun with fashion and changing things up and doing what makes me feel good. Uh, so yeah, I'm okay with it.

SPEAKER_02: 35:41

Great.

SPEAKER_01: 35:43

Except for today. Hold on. I do have to say, as we were coming up to make this podcast, just for listeners benefit, today is Black Friday. And so I did get up early to go do some shopping.

SPEAKER_03: 35:58

Oh my.

SPEAKER_01: 35:58

And I only made two stops. I went to HB and I went to Target. And so when I got home, I have bags and I was showing Liana what I had brought home. Judgment. Judgment. Is it color-coordinated? Probably not. I don't know. I mean, it's gray and blue, so I feel like I'm okay. But she had to point that out that she noticed, and so then she asked, is this what I wore out? And I felt judged. So societal norms or my own child's norms?

SPEAKER_02: 36:49

Yeah, no, I think it's women judge women a lot more harshly. Mm

SPEAKER_00: 36:55

hmm. Now I'm looking at you. Yeah. No, whatever. Because actually. Wow. Because actually, I remember all throughout high school or when I would come home, she'd be like, are you going out in that? Oh, yeah. That was a daily question. paying it forward oh good or she's like you're gonna go out like with your face looking like that wow and so i'm like oh i guess i'm gonna put on some makeup this is where we

SPEAKER_02: 37:17

probably should have started so

SPEAKER_00: 37:18

now i get to pay it back

SPEAKER_02: 37:22

yeah yeah did you go to target well it's because you're no longer home you can't get grounded you're an adult you're 22 you know you have very little You know, very little to lose.

SPEAKER_01: 37:35

She gets to leave

SPEAKER_02: 37:37

after

SPEAKER_01: 37:39

this.

SPEAKER_02: 37:39

Yeah, she can just bye. So usually to wrap up our podcast, we have a kind of a verdict, you know, like we call it board approved. What do you think would be the verdict of today's conversation?

SPEAKER_00: 37:55

What about it?

SPEAKER_02: 37:56

What would it be? Like, what are we going to board approve today? that women do change their styles a lot and it's based on what? Or what do you think it would be? I

SPEAKER_01: 38:08

think that at the end of our conversation, it's become clear that it's okay for women to change their looks as long as they're having fun with it. So

SPEAKER_02: 38:26

conversely, if you're not having fun with it, Then it's not okay to change your looks?

SPEAKER_00: 38:31

I think it's not that it's not okay. It's just that, like, why? Like, you shouldn't. You know, if you don't want to change your look and you feel like you're being pressured to do so, I don't think that's enough of a reason to go out and spend all this money to, you know, change your hair or do anything like that. I feel like if you want to change your look, it should be for you and it shouldn't be... because of the men in your life or societal pressures, I feel like it should benefit you and you should at least feel

SPEAKER_02: 39:01

good. So you've kind of taken what society's pushed on you and kind of owned it and kind of turned it against them? Like you're going to do it because you want to do it, not because society wants you to do it? Because the whole conversation was that you feel pressure from society money-wise, you know, you get paid more and all this, but you've kind of turned it To where it benefits you. If it

SPEAKER_01: 39:25

makes you feel good and it boosts your confidence, then do it.

SPEAKER_02: 39:30

Okay. Okay. So then we board approve changing the look to do it for yourself.

SPEAKER_01: 39:37

Yes.

SPEAKER_02: 39:38

Right?

SPEAKER_01: 39:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 39:39

Okay. So then there you go. There you go, guys. Board approved. Change your look as many times as you want. If it makes you feel good, change your hair, change your face. Change your clothes. And I think that's good. I mean, right? I agree. Yeah. All right. Board approved. Well, thank you for coming on. I would love to have you back on to discuss perhaps a movie, perhaps a rom-com, since we don't, you know, we don't, the guys and I don't discuss rom-coms that much. Or for any other reason. Anytime you're, if you're listening. And you're like, hey, I totally disagree with what they're talking about. Come on. And then we'll hash it out. So thank you.

SPEAKER_01: 40:30

Love

SPEAKER_02: 40:31

it. And have a good rest of the day, guys. Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this episode and you'd like to help support the podcast, please share it with others, post about it on social media or leave a rating and review. To catch all the latest from us, you can follow us on Instagram and Twitter. Thanks again and we'll see you next time.