The Chivalry Chronicles
We discuss topics such as Brotherhood, Masculinity, and Fatherhood. A modern manly approach to chivalry.
Or better yet, Guys Stuff that Guys Do, Cuz We're Guys.
The Chivalry Chronicles
Episode 010 - "Why Men Cling to Their Style: Vanity, Fashion, and Self-Expression"
Have you ever wondered why some men cling to their favorite styles like a beloved old sweater, refusing to let go even as fashion changes around them? Join us, your hosts David, Dr. DLH, and Jaime, as we unravel the complex and often amusing relationship between men and vanity. From our personal tales of shaving heads and growing beards to the unexpected challenges of beard grooming, we confront the societal expectations that press upon men to maintain a certain look.
Take a humorous stroll down memory lane as we recall the hair-raising trends of our teenage years. Remember those parental eye rolls and the job interview transformations? It's all on the table, including reflections on the broccoli haircut phenomenon and the delicate dance between self-expression and societal norms. Let's face it, as norms evolve, so does the need for teenagers to balance between looking cool for their peers and presentable for potential employers.
Finally, step into the world of men's fashion, where comfort meets societal acceptance. Ever noticed how some folks stick with their style like it's a lifelong partner? We share stories about the power of perception, the pleasure of sartorial choices, and the unspoken rules of dressing for respect. Whether it's the casual elegance of a cap or the timeless class of a suit, discover how clothing choices speak volumes about our identity and intentions. From flat-brim hats to lavender shirts, it's a candid conversation about changing looks and societal perceptions that promises to leave you both entertained and introspective.
If, by some chance, some stroke of luck or some act of God, god, you have stumbled upon this broadcast. You are listening to the Chivalry Chronicles with your host, dlh David, and me, jaime. I hope you're ready, because I know we are, so let's get into it. What happened to the fucking?
Speaker 3:Oh god damn it. Yeah, oh my god, yes, okay, there you go.
Speaker 2:Coming to you from the friendly confines of the Chivalry Studios, aka my office upstairs. Welcome, aka my office upstairs.
Speaker 1:Welcome, gentlemen. I think we could have done without the aka.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, I think the listeners need to know you know, get you know, peel back the curtain a little bit of what we do and how we do it, just in case I had questions, man, I don't know. So to the listeners, there's whatever platform you use, there is a send us a text and I urge you guys, send us a text whenever you you know, think of something or disagree with mainly david, because I know I get a bunch of texts from you guys anyway. Just send it on there and we'll post it on our website. But anyway, today we're going to talk about men, or man versus vanity. Why do some men not change their looks? I'm looking at two people that haven't changed their looks the entire time I've known them. So I think it's a good topic. Dlh, do you have a reason why you haven't changed your look in the past eight years?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it's because my body won't let me.
Speaker 2:Your body, your choice man, you should tell your body it's your choice, it is my body's choice?
Speaker 1:No, I would like. If I'm starting, I think the main thing for me is being bald and being bearded.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:Is.
Speaker 2:That is something I never thought in the past that I would be. When did you make the decision to like just lop it all off?
Speaker 1:When I started getting that bald spot in the back of my head, which was when I don't I don't even know at this point. Now it's Thirties.
Speaker 2:Twenties? Yeah, I don't even know at this point.
Speaker 1:Now it's 30s, 20s it was in my 30s really. It was like mid mid 30s is when that started happening. Um, and I, you know, I have like long wavy hair and whatever.
Speaker 2:I do, if I if.
Speaker 1:I let it grow out, but at this point, now that the bald spot gets larger and larger and larger, and I'm I'm just not somebody who is gonna um hey, man don't don't make fun of michael bolton. That's a good look, man, and well, and the thing is, I'm not gonna knock anybody who decides to go the route of like um, what do they call it? Like hair transplants or rogaine or all those other things. But that's just not for me, right.
Speaker 1:A little turf, the little powder yeah, you could have crop circles up and you could do whatever you want to do for me when I started having all of this and I was like you know what, let me just lean into what's already happening. And then I just shaved my head and then I focused on the beard.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it went from one to the other.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because I know you're also talking about vanity. It's actually really interesting and it was surprising the amount of care that is essential for your beard.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Otherwise it gets unruly and doing its own thing quickly. So there is a regimen that's required to keep a good, long and healthy beard.
Speaker 2:Yeah, one of my coworkers has a beard and he kind of grows it out, then shaves it, then grows it out long and healthy beard. Yeah, I had one of my coworkers has a beard and he kind of grows it out every once in a while, then shaves it, then grows it out. I can't grow a beard. If I did, I'd freaking have a long-ass beard too. But somebody broke into his car and they took his beard brush and he goes man, I don't care about anything else.
Speaker 1:Why my beard brush? Yes, I yes.
Speaker 2:I've experienced that too, and then when you told me I was like it must be a thing dog, I guess it's a thing, I was mad.
Speaker 1:Everything else I don't care, but you took my beard brush.
Speaker 3:Oh, so that happened to you as well. Yeah, it has happened to me, oh damn.
Speaker 1:Somebody broke into my car and they took a couple of other things. I don't even care what they were. They took my beard balm, and there's a certain way that you use those things in order to keep a healthy beard.
Speaker 2:Nice, David. When did you start losing your hair?
Speaker 3:Well, I have a head of hair. I would say it's thinner than it used to be.
Speaker 2:I think that does happen.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I agree. Now my brother is younger than me and he's bald like DLH. Same kind of thing happened to him, but I continue to have my hair, but why do you always cover it with a?
Speaker 1:cap, though I don't every time I see you have a cap on I think so is that uh I I typically don't cover it with a cap.
Speaker 2:I mean there's no, I think, but you wear a cap every time.
Speaker 3:I see you, you have a cap I, I do, uh, I mean for work. Whenever I'm working and I know I'm going to be on on camera or zoom or whatever I'm, I'm actually physically visiting clients, I comb my hair, uh, that's the only hair combed all day yesterday after the barber shop.
Speaker 1:But he gelled it and I said I'll leave it like that for the day so you keep the vanity for work and then you take all that off when you are around yeah, just yeah, ease it up so I know we were talking about it before we started recording, kind of the three um options.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what were they, david? What were you guys came up with them, so I'm gonna leave it up to you yeah, no, no, you do the first one.
Speaker 1:Dave will do the one in the middle.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it was vanity. And what was the other one dlh?
Speaker 1:no, the dave is doing the practical. That's the one I'm doing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's the word for today.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're on sesame street utilitarianism some of the syllables alluded him so so he went with practical yeah, so so we were talking about, I'll say so, what are the kind of the, the two and the two extremes? I guess is vanity and uh, utilitarianism, and then the middle one well, that is the middle utilitarianism the other one is humility is humility, right humble yeah so now y'all have teenagers, right.
Speaker 2:Have you encountered, um, your son or daughter like expressing themselves through their hair? Cause, I know my son has changed this look about every year since we started going to a barber, which when he was about eight, and so he's 18 now and so he's changed it. I don't know a lot and, and for him it's just a way to express himself and and he goes with the times. If it it's this way, I know that what, like four years ago, right, not even even now. There's still the, the broccoli thing where they just kind of have the like the patrick mahomes haircut yeah, it's really big in high school now. It's kind of coming off of that. So my son has kind of um, changed with the times, right, and it's been the past eight to ten years that he's and, and every time he'll like do you think, what do you think about this one? I'm like, hey, do whatever you want with your hair.
Speaker 2:I know when I was in high school I had long hair. My dad hated it. They wanted us to cut it all the time. My hair was like down to the middle of my back and and um, and that's how I, you know, my, my two older brothers had long hair. So you kind of do what your brothers do, you know. And so because my dad was super like you need to cut your hair, uh, I'm like whatever you want to do, if you want to do. Uh, he did a faux hawk one time, like when he was like nine. Uh, now he's kind of gotten back to just kind of real short on the size and a little bit long on the top. But have y'all kind of noticed your kid kind of changing in that way? And you know, before they kind of just get to a look like we're all freaking middle-aged, somewhat Right, and you kind of just pick a look and then just say screw it, you know, you get you sit in a barber chair.
Speaker 1:You're like you know, you know what to do, bro, like, yeah, two around the ears, three around the sides, you just cut the top and I saw this, um, I saw this video on uh instagram and it was like it was talking about uh teenagers these days and their their hair. But the video was like a, a deer or something that had its head in the, in, the in, like the brush. And then I was like and it says something that had its head in the brush, and then I was like and it says wait for it, right? And so when the deer comes out of the brush, there's a bunch of just loose things hanging in the antlers.
Speaker 1:And then they were like that's the teenager's hair nowadays and that's kind of SI right now, right, really, it's really interesting. When he was like 8 to 10 years old, he was very meticulous on how he was combing his hair. He was very specific on it and it doesn't seem like the attention to his hair has gone away. But the way that he now does it is different. He leaves it dry, he uses his hands to give it a sort of direction and then he lets where it is yes, right, and then, and then every now and it.
Speaker 2:This didn't happen until he became 13 yeah, now I see him with the head oh yeah, where he just throws his head in a direction and lets the hair fall wherever it goes yeah I'm like what's up with you know? Never mind that's the thing dog let me, let you do your thing well, because when we met aside he had long hair, which I thought was cool because I had long hair right, and so I, if I could do it, I would probably do it again but it's probably the forever so to grow it.
Speaker 3:Jaime was probably the reason why he cut his hair. Who was I yeah.
Speaker 1:No, why would that be?
Speaker 3:I didn't like jaime thinks it's cool, cool, oh is that what you mean?
Speaker 1:That was a terrible joke.
Speaker 2:This is a hard landing, yeah, the wheels weren't down I'm talking to
Speaker 1:your kids yeah that one didn't land at all. No, he loved his long hair. He wound up cutting it because he goes to a military school.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's right, they don't allow long hair.
Speaker 1:So he was resistant to that at first. That's how much attention he paid to his hair but um, eventually he decided it was worth it. So tell me.
Speaker 2:so you keep fighting, a good fight, man. I had to cut it, I think, when I was a senior in high school, because I was uh interviewing for internships and stuff like that and and they were like, uh, so, hyman, you got to cut your hair and he, he was like, super, like you have no clout. I was like dang. I mean all you had to say is I had to cut my hair, like I get it Like you know. So I ended up cutting it. You know, my senior year. I had it long, probably from my freshman year or eighth grade up until my senior year, and then I cut it and then when I got to college I grew it back out.
Speaker 2:But that's why I'm kind of with Joaquin, do whatever you want. Like this is the time to do it, because at some point you're going to have to fall in line with whatever job you have. Right, if that job kind of you have to have it a certain way, then you have to do it then. But from now until, like college, I don't care how he does his hair Now, I don't like the broccoli thing. College, I don't care how he does his hair. No, I don't like the broccoli thing. I thought it was kind of kind of silly, but but it's his hair, you know what?
Speaker 1:I'm saying and that's one of the few ways to express yourself and it goes with the times. I think, whatever, whatever that is now do you think?
Speaker 3:do you think, um, because I, I think in the workplace things have gotten a little, a bit more lax than than they used to be, uh, so, uh, you can likely go in with long hair, and it's just a. It's just a thing, I mean there's, I think, it depends.
Speaker 2:I think it depends on the profession. Yeah, exactly, yeah yeah, my son.
Speaker 3:My son had the long wavy hair brock. It looked like broccoli to me uh, patrick mahomes, yeah and he had it real long. And I remember going to his middle school to pick him up for a dentist appointment or something like that. All the kids walking the hallway had the same hairdo.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, no, absolutely All of them.
Speaker 3:I would say at least 70% of those. If they were a boy, they had that wavy hair Absolutely. And Isaiah was getting a perm because I mean, yes, his, his hair is straight.
Speaker 2:Yes, that's what it is, that's what I was okay. So now we're, we're to the new bottle. Uh, and that's what I was telling, telling my son. I was like, son, your hair is not going to do that. You have straight hair at at the very, at the best you can do. It's wavy, but it's straight, it's not gonna curl up, it's not gonna do that. So what? You're looking because he'd get upset. Sometimes he's like, ah, they messed up my hair. Dad, and I was like, no, son, that's your hair, it's not gonna curl up, it's straight now you keep on.
Speaker 1:You. You're saying patrick mahomes, but he's, I think he's the one that popularized, popularized that I mean maybe, but but his hair is curated like he specifically has it with whatever product that keeps it the way it is curly. It's curly, yes, but it's not like it's messy and dry and he just leaves it where it falls it just.
Speaker 2:I think he actually does it that way, right, and um as I'm talking about like how it's kind of here in his face and it's all curly. If you go to high school, go to any high school, actually, you saw it as much anymore, but yeah, yeah, maybe like two years ago it was everywhere We'd go to practice football practice.
Speaker 1:I mean there were people that were going to get Patrick Mahomes haircut specifically, but but I'm talking like the like the dry. I just got out of bed.
Speaker 2:I'm not going to put any product in and I'm just going to guide it with my fingers. Well, I think that's because they don't have curly hair.
Speaker 3:Well as I does.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay.
Speaker 3:No, that is a thing, and I think more so during the pandemic. I think everybody became a bit more lax, including the kids. They weren't necessarily going physically to school.
Speaker 2:Was it the Justin Beaver?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it's kind of like that, yes, and it's just wake up and throw a little water and put it in a direction and let's go yeah, and have that messy hair, and then you spend all day flicking your head one side.
Speaker 3:But you know, I think going back to, I think, maybe getting more back on topic. Gentlemen, we're on topic.
Speaker 2:We are on topic. We're talking about looks.
Speaker 3:Okay, so we talked about whenever DLH and myself made specific changes. How about you, jaime?
Speaker 2:Well, I kind of talked about it a few minutes ago. I had long hair in high school. I had to cut it my senior year and then I grew it back out when I was in college and then I didn't cut it up until like the semester before I graduated because I was like, okay, my degree is in civil engineering. It's not like you get a lot of, it's a pretty conservative field and I'm coming to San Antonioio, which is, strangely enough, more conservative than dallas, um, because I had the earrings, you know, and I remember coming down here and they were like okay, and I was like, oh shit, I need to take these earrings out because they you know it's, it wasn't, I guess it wasn't common, I don't know, like this, like this was this wasn't even that long. Well, it is a long time ago now, it was 99.
Speaker 2:But I cut my hair you know just kind of what you see now. Before it was a little bit closer on the sides, but then it's like it becomes too high maintenance. You have to cut it every freaking three to four weeks. Now I try to stretch it out to six to seven weeks, and I think to six to seven weeks, and I think that's why it's just easier. But yeah, to me, I mean my, my two older brothers and my younger brother. They still have long hair and I think it's cool and I if, if I could just go away for a year and come back along here, I think I'd do that, but it is so. It takes so long for it to grow. It takes almost.
Speaker 1:it takes almost a year, I think all right, I want to, I want to, I want to simplify this a little bit, right? Just to ask a question, okay, when we, when we get into, uh, this topic of um vanity, right, I don't even know that we did a good job of uh expressing what each one of these are right, okay the.
Speaker 1:The utilitarian version would be just kind of going forward using what you got available. As you are right, moving forward right humility would be doing purposefully less right. It doesn't mean that you're disheveled or on minimalist or any of that stuff. We'll say minimalism. Yeah, you just do the minimal amount to make sure that you are hygienic and all that stuff, but you do it on purpose. And then you have the other um side of that, which is vanity.
Speaker 2:And vanity is when you do more yeah than it would be necessary for the social norm right, we'll say that, yeah, we have brothers that cut their hair every week.
Speaker 1:Okay, so yeah what I'm thinking about right now is if I give you, if I just tell you, skincare and skincare routines, where would you place that? Is that in vanity? Is it in utility? Yeah, I'm pretty sure it would not be in the humility category?
Speaker 2:No, I think it would be, depending on how deep you go into it. It's one of the other two right?
Speaker 1:Well, let me define that. I don't mean skincare is like when you're in the shower, you wash your face. Okay, that should be a minimal standard. But when you get out of the shower, do you have I don't even know what you call some of these things you get out of the shower? Do you have, um, I don't even know what you call some of these things? Astringent to take any oils off of your face? Uh, some sort of rehydrator? No, um, things for the dark circles under your eyes?
Speaker 3:negative uh, any of that stuff, dave?
Speaker 2:no, uh, simple lotion whenever I feel like, yeah, starting to get dry, that's it get out of the shower, you put lotion boom out all right now, I know neither one of you has a as fully developed a beard as I do, but beard care, routine, vanity, utility, humility um, I think I guess it could be considered more vanity, but it's because you have to, because if not it'll go crazy, like if it's too dry, or I. Now I have some of those products to where it's like an oil and then there's like a bomb to keep it in place, and I have used that, and when I before I used it, this shit just went everywhere, right it's, you know. But when you start using it it's like okay, there is a way to just manage it, and so it is kind of vanity, but I think it has to be for it to look good, for it to not be just nasty.
Speaker 3:I was going to say during the pandemic I grew out my beard. So I did have a beard and I didn't really do much with it, other than I would comb it after I got out of the shower and then leave it like that, but it would just kind of go out in all the different directions everywhere, but I also didn't want to necessarily go through the hassle of putting in oils I don't necessarily like oils on my skin and so forth because it just I don't know well, I think it's.
Speaker 2:It's for your skin so it doesn't dry.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I understand it is. It's just that it's even like whenever you put on lotion and you just feel like that greasiness kind of feel to it. Yeah, I know it, I know it have has a purpose, but I don't particularly like it.
Speaker 1:It just suffocating so especially during the summertime so for me, in order, in order to just get this point across, um, I think that I have elements of all three of these right vanity vanity, utility and and you're dirty and dirty, all right.
Speaker 2:So for DLH, dirty little human.
Speaker 1:I would say that, for vanity, definitely. My beard. Right For me my beard has become. I have chosen to make it a part of my identity. I could get rid of it, I don't.
Speaker 2:Yeah For the listeners. Dlh drives around a jeep with a picture basically of himself on the tire, but in the tire cover. Yeah, in the skull form, because letty came home, my wife came home and he's like why does dlh have a picture of himself in the back? I was like I don't think it's a picture of himself. I think there's something that looks like it's a picture of my dead self.
Speaker 3:I don't know, I still kind of look like you you look real busted right now maybe you should uh put some of that oil on your skin so you need some of that for the dark.
Speaker 2:Well, you know we already passed our goading episode.
Speaker 1:I'm gonna calm down a little bit. Um, so, for, for my beard, just like you said, there's, there's the oil part, that's, uh, that's in there, that that is for your skin, right. Um, I, I not only am okay with that, but you need it, otherwise you get really itchy. Yeah, but I do all of the things. That's why I know about the beard care routine is because I do it. This would be my vanity part. I have chosen to keep the beard, even though I know it's more work than is required on a daily basis.
Speaker 2:Well, I think some people need to do it. I think, whatever you do, you need to package it up, create a list and send it to Kevin Durant because his beard is trash. Well, he barely has one, I know. Shave it off. It looks nasty, dog, but go ahead.
Speaker 1:So, that would be my vanity part is choosing to do the beard care routine. The part that's more in the middle, I would say, is that's where it came to hair. I didn't choose to do anything to keep my hair. I've been dealt the cards, I've been dealt with that and I just decided to shave my head and go with it.
Speaker 2:And how often do you have to shave your head?
Speaker 1:Well, even at that, sometimes you won't see it like skin shaven, because I'm trying to do the minimal amount possible. I hate having to uh do that every two or three days or whatever. So I'll go a week, wow, and I'll go and let it grow to an acceptable amount and then it's like all right, fine, I'm in a position where I have to shave it, so that's very much utility for me. Uh. And then the area where I get more into humility is more about, like, um, shopping for clothes, or, uh, or my jeep. I have a, I have a 2006 wrangler uh, that yeah, but that's not your look no, no, no, but but I identify
Speaker 1:with it specifically because I choose, um, I choose not to upgrade my vehicle, right, and by that I mean not getting a newer vehicle, which I could. I just don't. I could also upgrade my Jeep itself, but I don't, I just want to leave it like it is and it's as much in its factory level as I can. Is that why you don't upgrade your clothes and my clothes? That's the other part.
Speaker 1:I don't go shopping, I don't buy myself new clothes. I spend the money elsewhere or don't spend it at all, or whatever, but I don't get new clothes.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So DLH showed up today with a button-down shirt and slacks and dress shoes. I was like what the hell? What happened to DLH? Because every other time I've seen them it's a t-shirt and shorts time I've seen them.
Speaker 1:It's a t-shirt and shorts, or or like pants, but but everything I wear is fitness whenever possible.
Speaker 2:I'm in fitness gear, which is, I mean, I guess it's cool, like I I get it. I. I know a friend of mine who's always in cargo pants and a t-shirt. I'm like, yes, he goes. Oh man, that's all it fits. But now, if you think about it, this way.
Speaker 1:uh like, yes, I got a degree in a different area and I will be changing jobs fairly soon, but for the time being I am a fitness professional. So, technically speaking, every time I come here I'm in business attire, really.
Speaker 2:With my fitness things. That's not business attire. Look at business attire. That is not it.
Speaker 1:Well if you're in the fitness industry, that's how you go.
Speaker 2:You're a starving fitness instructor. Well, see.
Speaker 1:So then, just like I said, that would go more towards the. For me it's not that that is humility, but for me that's the humility is that I choose to not spend my time doing the shopping and upgrading my clothes and all.
Speaker 2:I just so you're, you're, you're kind of settled on this look and has been your look for how long now?
Speaker 1:uh, well, now definitely as long as I've been a fitness professional, which is a little over seven years so for the past seven years, you have not changed how you look yeah, definitely not. Okay, yeah, bald head beard. Uh, fitness attire. Now, of course, over seven years, you have to get some new fitness attire, but I even keep that as minimal as possible most of the time for fitness gear. Uh, the smell factor comes into play. Oh yeah, you have to decide, crusty, when it's time.
Speaker 2:Yeah it's like I need to throw that shirt away.
Speaker 1:yeah, to trade that out. Yeah, that's buddy so.
Speaker 2:David, your look, how you look right now. I mean, at least David does dress up when he needs to dress up. You know you wear a sport coat. I know on weeknight I've seen you and whenever we have like spring luncheons and stuff like that, you dress up. But your overall look is kind of been the same. Do you agree?
Speaker 3:And how long has that been? Yeah, about. The only thing that I know that I've changed is my hairstyle, but it's been relatively short to begin with, so I used to just say it's a one fade, mid fade and then short on the top, and then I would just it almost looked like a military cut, essentially, and I would just throw some gel and push my hair forward and that was called it a day. Now I do the what is it called? Where you part it to the side, a comb over.
Speaker 2:I know it's got a specific name, but it's not a comb over.
Speaker 3:I know it's got a specific name, but it's not a comb over, but that's what I think when we started it.
Speaker 2:I guess the title of the podcast is why do you think you haven't changed it Like? Why haven't you changed it in the amount of time that you have Like to both of you? Why has it stayed the same? Is it because you're comfortable in it? Because I will tell you a story you know, once you tell me kind of your answer, I'll tell you a story about. It happened with my son and his friends yeah, I.
Speaker 3:I think at the end of the day it's just something I'm comfortable with. Like, I personally liked the look as far as what I felt, uh, and settled on it and then it just became habitual. It's easy for me to go into the barber and he already knows what I like and how to do it, so that gets done. My clothes it's pretty simplistic. I know how it, how I feel in it, how I fit in it and and so forth, and I kind of feel it has a little bit of classic, a classic look to it. So it's not too wild on the color, not too wild on the style that I have to worry about. Is this trending? Is this not trending?
Speaker 2:It's just so the skinny jeans that you used to wear.
Speaker 3:I give him a DLH.
Speaker 1:Right, because I'm somebody that wears skinny jeans.
Speaker 3:Let's just say he hung them up.
Speaker 2:So to you, DLH, why do you think you've settled on that look and not changed it Like, is it just because that's the way it is?
Speaker 1:Well, all right. So if I go into the behavioral realm, right to turn this a little bit academic, we are hedonistic. Beings Define hedonistic. Look it up.
Speaker 2:For the listeners Right now.
Speaker 1:Google it Right, hedonism.
Speaker 2:I'm going to do that. They're going to be driving.
Speaker 1:Hedonism is essentially that you're always looking for something that is pleasurable to you. That's what a hedonist is. So in doing things that are pleasurable to you and then also human beings. Our nature is to be stress reducing, so we're always looking to reduce our stress. So if we consider our look as what we project out into the world without having to do anything, you are always in this sort of middle ground between what is acceptable for you to project yourself as being when you go out in public and the amount of work it requires to project that look okay, what so?
Speaker 2:yeah, rocky um so well, okay, I listened to the ticket and dials and they have this thing, uh, that they talk about every once in a while and they say this is when you feel your most squared away, like when you get a, a haircut. Like you know, when you get a haircut and you liked it, you know, sometimes you don't like it and you wear a suit, you feel the most well put together. You, you feel like you look good, but you're saying you don't feel that way in a suit.
Speaker 1:Like I don't but but other people might. So, let's say that, for instance, you get somebody who does this, they get a fresh haircut, they get a suit and they feel right, yeah, right. And then what they'll do is they'll create a regimen where they get a haircut regularly, they'll get their arsenal of suits yeah. And then, either way, if you decided what your look is going to be, you're still going to make that as easy as possible for you to achieve Right.
Speaker 1:This is you have your go to, because that's yes, because that's how you want to look Now for me. I'm not someone who looks forward to being in that suit and tie, just way of really being. I don't know, I'm always hot and it feels restrictive.
Speaker 3:I don't like it well, what's, what's funny with me is, uh, wearing a dress attire like a tie and a button-up shirt and all that other stuff came into play for me during high school.
Speaker 3:Um, I remember I was a I think, a sophomore and every every Wednesday there was where we spent the morning volunteering somewhere and I was put with the Texas Workforce Commission or the Texas Unemployment Commission at the time and I'd have to go there and part of me volunteering there is.
Speaker 3:I had to dress up and I realized really quick that when I didn't know how to tie a tie or anything, it was because of that experience that I learned how to do those things. But what I did notice is how much more respect I would get, even as a young kid, at 15 years old. I would walk to the office and, all of a sudden, these secretaries that wouldn't pay attention to anybody, any student coming in, when they saw me walk in I'm just a 15-year-old kid, but, yes, can I help you, sir? And I just saw how it changed things when I walked the halls. I could be skipping class, but because I'm in a suit, I wasn't questioned and, yes, I still looked young, but it carried some weight and from that is where it was like okay, I see the significance and I like that feeling, so I do like dressing up like that.
Speaker 3:I don't necessarily not into the ties as much anymore.
Speaker 2:But a good sport coat, a button down shirt, your little handkerchief, you know, kind of put in your pocket. I feel the same way, like when I was a kid. For some reason I I thought suits looked awesome. I thought they looked badass, and my dad my dad still had his suit that he got married in and it was always hanging in his closet and then when I was like seven or eight, I'd go take it out. I'll be like man dude. I looked at it the other day. It was was like a brown suit. It looked really bad. But when I was a kid I was like suits look awesome. But I was going to get back to the story, right. So I think one of the reasons that men don't change their look is because you're going to get a lot of crap from other men, you know.
Speaker 2:Okay, that's an interesting perspective I think, um, so like whenever, uh, so my son has a friend and he has the. He has the prototypical, um, look, uh, the patrick mahomes, look right, and so he's the. He's the quarterback, uh, for the, for the high school team. And then here recently he changed his look. He, he took all those braids, oh, he took those curls and he made them braids, and so he shows up to school with these braids, right and uh, and the guys, joaquin and all the, because there's like three, three of them, four used to be four, but now there's three of them and they just so all happen to be in the same class. They start calling them travis scott. They're like, hey, uh, are happened to be in the same class. They start calling them Travis Scott. They're like, hey, are you the highest in the room?
Speaker 2:You know, just like doing all Travis Scott songs and they gave him so much hell the first couple of days that he changed his look, that Joaquin was telling me and I was laughing because I was like that's exactly what would happen, right, and this poor kid, right, and I love all those kids, but he's like guys. You know, I've been getting a lot of compliments on this. I don't know why y'all like this. And so anytime, even when Joaquin would change his look, you know he's like ah, you know, because I used to drop him off at school and he's like ah, I'm going to get a dad, I, I'm going to get it dad. I was like I know son, and he walked in. They're like ew, ugly-ass boy, and I think it's just like that. I think, guys, you know, back to goading. If you change anything about you, you know, like if you grow a beard, like no, what's up with that beard dog? You know what?
Speaker 3:I'm saying and it's got to be with guys, it's got to be significant a little more significant, because we get haircuts and nobody even blinks an eye or anything.
Speaker 1:But even like now, when I got here today, y'all gave me shit because I was wearing regular clothes.
Speaker 2:I think that's just common.
Speaker 1:If you change it, you're going to get a little bit.
Speaker 2:Because it's noticeable. Yeah, you're trying to minimize the amount of shit you get from brothers or even friends, and even when you wear a suit. Okay, you interviewing today dressed up.
Speaker 3:Yeah, he looked like he works at a as a busboy at a marisco's place.
Speaker 2:He's at bj's with joaquin right now.
Speaker 1:Hey, dog you need to get there by five okay, but y'all talked about, um, like, I think that, in my perspective, right when you talked about coming up and liking the idea or wearing suits and things like that, I think that you're still in the utilitarian area. Oh, absolutely Right. Because if we're going to break this down to, should men own jackets, a square, something to be able to get dressed up? Absolutely you should. But if we talk about the concept of code switching right, we talked about that. Usually that's in language. But if you have to wear something to fit the occasion, absolutely you should be able to do that. Yeah. But what I would say now is even if you like that look on occasion, why aren't y'all wearing this jacket in whatever right now?
Speaker 2:Because I don't think it's something you wear every day.
Speaker 1:Well, but if it's what you, what? Is your commonplace, your everyday thing, not because you have to, because you want to.
Speaker 2:Well, I think it's you kind of have those like. The times I do wear it is when we go to church. You know, I like to wear a sport coat or something nice, but because at work I you know, I work in an office, so I have to wear a button-down shirt and khakis or whatever. And on a weekend you don't want to wear that, right?
Speaker 1:But do you know people who do? That wear suits all the time. Yeah, they wear suits. They're pretty much dressed up every time they go out in public.
Speaker 2:They're usually like 70 plus.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:I know, people. There is some young folks.
Speaker 1:I know people that are in 20s, 30s. They wear suits 40s, and it may not be a complete suit if they wear a, uh, it's like a curated look. Right, they have their their shirt with a collar, they're wearing a vest no jacket, you know, but it still has a little pocket square in the vest or like and then they have their, their particular sunglasses that they'd like to look, yeah, and, and every time they're in public they make a specific effort to look that way. Right, that's what I would say is vanity, really, yeah, and it's not I don't think that it's like necessarily vanity in a bad way.
Speaker 1:It's just that they have chosen to do more than is necessary for whatever the occasion. You're just going out in public. You could go out there in jeans and a t-shirt. They chose not to. That, to me, says vanity. You're paying a little more attention to your look. That goes above and beyond.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So I agree with that, but also in the sense like I would dress up to go somewhere, but depending on who or what that environment is going to look like. So, for example, that's utilitarian. It is. It is but to a degree, Because to go to a restaurant, like for church, for example, Right, when you go to church, some churches are very laid back. People do show up in shorts.
Speaker 2:Oh, they show up in all kinds of yes, but that's why I ask what's the dress attire? Because I want to be utilitarian well so so like our church doesn't have a specific dress, but you still dress up and see I still dress up. Um, okay, here's something that that it's kind of adjacent to this.
Speaker 1:Stay on topic.
Speaker 2:I know it is, though it is because we're talking about it. Back in the day and my dad used to do this is when we went somewhere, right when we went from Dallas to Mexico, my dad would be dressed to the nines, even on the drive over there. So when he got there he'd be, you know, suited and booted baby. He looked good, and so when I saw that my grandfather kind of did the same thing, anytime he went to traveling he would wear a suit, and so anytime that I've traveled I wear a sport coat. I it just I kind of it just kind of I. I saw it and I was like okay, but people don't do that anymore.
Speaker 1:No, that's old world.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, it is. Anytime people are on a train we were talking about Tombstone All those people dressed tie, button down, shirt, you know, like a three piece suit, that type of stuff, and anytime you traveled you were dressed to the nines. Yeah, and so I kind of, I kind of like that, you know so, whenever, anytime we've flown, I do wear a sport coat, I wear my boots, I wear you know what I'm saying. So I look put together. But you know, my kids were in freaking pajamas, they were in sweat, sweatpants and I think I mean, I think people should be a little bit more, you know, kind of it gets pretty bad on.
Speaker 3:Yeah, especially on flight. Yeah, I take your shoes off all the time, yeah well, I think that.
Speaker 1:Well, see, now we're getting it. I don't even know if we were going to create a fourth category beyond humble right don't wear pajamas on a flight if you're if you're over yeah, if you're over 10 spongebob yeah I mean, don't do stuff like that.
Speaker 1:That's uh, that's lower than the, but that's minimal standard utilitarianism no that's not because that, because utility would be, uh, dressing, the minimal amount that you need to be in public, and I think that if you are again, if you're not a child being in pajamas out in public is less than minimal.
Speaker 2:It used to be that you didn't see men in sweatpants out in public unless they were working out Unless they were in the gym pants out in public unless they were working out.
Speaker 3:They were in the gym. Yeah, the standards. You didn't now, you were me in fifth grade and didn't like wearing husky jeans, so you put on the sweatpants, the the standard has changed.
Speaker 1:Now. I will say this before um, I, I've worked in professional areas, right, where every day I had to wear a suit. Uh, that's how I know I have both perspectives and that's why I know I choose not to be in a suit every day. Now what I will say is um, once I go and get another job, of whatever it is, uh, with this degree it's possible that I'm gonna have to go back to the suit. Yeah, and I'm okay with that because it would be utilitarian, right, I'd have to do it to keep what I need to do.
Speaker 2:I think so. So we have meetings, we have city council meetings that we have to attend. Anytime I have to attend a meeting, I will wear a sport coat. Anytime I have to attend a city council meeting, I will wear because I'm representing the company. I don't have to do it, but I want to do it because part of it is I'm representing the company. I'm representing the company, I'm representing our company and usually when you see somebody in the suit like david was saying they're like oh man, this, this guy probably knows what he's talking about yeah, but do you do it over a button-up collared shirt or is it a oh?
Speaker 2:yeah, no, no, I will wear a button-down shirt.
Speaker 1:Well, I wear a button on the shirt, a button down the shirt to to work to work all the time, yeah, and so I'll wear terrian uh, but I mean, I could wear a polo but I was going to say the rest of your staff generally wear a polo for the most part, yes, OK, but I guess what I'm saying for you is, if this is the difference in my mind between utilitarian and vanity, if you choose to wear a sport coat over a button down shirt and and you're just meeting, we'll just say, the standard of what you think it is, it may be more than some people might do, yes, but it would also be different than vanity. Whereas, like in vanity, you might it, it may need to be a giorgio armani.
Speaker 2:Yes, it might have to be a very specific yeah with, yeah with the $10,000 watch and stuff like that Something that says like I'm not just here in business attire as a standard, I am here in above. Yeah, and I will tell you, the last time I wore a suit actually, yeah, it was a couple of weeks ago. I didn't wear the tie, but everything else was a suit.
Speaker 3:And I was wearing a nice pair of boots, suit and all this and that, and I show up to them and they're like dang, what are we interviewing today?
Speaker 2:I was like why do you? Yeah, so I think you get it from anywhere. And these are people that I work, these are colleagues, you know, like they're city officials, you know, and even they're like what's going on?
Speaker 3:yeah, I. I was always taught and I think it still goes back to that that high school time period, when you don't know the environment that you're going into, you're better suited going one up, yeah, at least think one up in dressing that, yeah, which is not utilitarian.
Speaker 2:it's one up up yeah. And the thing is, isn't it? No, you're going one up.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but you're not going vanity.
Speaker 3:But see, like me, for example, I work with credit unions nationwide. Some credit unions are very traditional, so everybody is dressed up. For the most part Looks like banking attire what you would think banking attire is. But then I go to, let's say, uh, this coming week I'm going to la.
Speaker 3:I know, out of those credit unions that I'm going to visit, they're, they're very well could be some in flip-flops, uh, they're back office staff, these are chiefs, but they're, uh, they're very casual within the workplace and you see more of that now than ever before. Um, but me, I will still be wearing slacks, some dress shoes, yeah, a sport jacket and a button-up, right, and if I do want to slightly dress down, if I know they're, they're generally in tennis shoes and so forth I may wear jeans, button up, a sport jacket or polo, but a sport jacket, always to complement it, right, it goes back to that just having that one up so that I, I get some added respect. Uh, so that and it's very subtle because you also have to maintain, you have to maintain that once you get in Right, you can't show up in a tux.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but you do want to go in, you are generally going to receive more respect, especially if you carry yourself and you're assertive and that type of stuff. All that comes into play. But I think it kind of sets the tone. I think it also sets the tone, even though it's very subtle, when you stand up and address somebody. Somebody walks into the room and you stand up and shake their hand, that type of stuff hashtag night code.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's also just manners. Yeah, that's night codes. Yeah, okay, so we we were talking about man changes our looks and we kind of got stuck on wardrobe. Well, that's a big part of your looks, it is. But uh, so these other things, is it important to change your look? Do you think it's important to change your look? Because we've kind of touched on it as we're talking about it, because it depends on the event, it depends on you know what the attire is, and but is it important to change your overall look, like cutting your hair a different way, shaving your beard, that type of stuff?
Speaker 1:do you think it's important? I think it's only important to stay current with the, the times, right? So if you get somebody who's like older uh I don't know how to describe it to you but if the fine older. But if I told you this I'm going to do right now and everybody's going to get their own visual, but if everybody can think of an older businessman who's going to dress in a shirt, Clean shaven. That is clean shaven. Yeah, Is wearing a shirt that is either off-white, beige tan.
Speaker 2:Really I don't like it, but they wear it all the time they do yeah.
Speaker 1:And I don't even think I need to go any further than this.
Speaker 2:A 1970s tie yeah, everybody has a view of what that is right, it's a big old tie and the brown what the hell pattern is on that, and it's usually brown because it goes with that off white. Absolutely. Yeah, um like if you're going to do that in in polyester if you're going somewhere to try and get a job in a day's market you should probably update that work a little bit.
Speaker 1:Yes, right. Um, does that mean not wear a shirt and tie? No, do that. If that's what you, if that, if that's in your character and what you, what you like to do, then you do that. Uh, you just update enough to fit in the current era so that your, so that your attire is not dating you and working against you.
Speaker 2:Right, and, and so I agree you should change it. I mean, I know, back in probably like 15 years ago, um, the whole monochrome look where it was the shirt and the tie were the same color and it was, uh, regis, I think regis filming like he, he kind of made that look. And so, I know, I came home and letty was like, oh, I bought you all this stuff and I was like, okay, cool, because I used to wear a tie to work, well, four days out of the week and so I was wearing that. You know what I'm saying. And then, after a while, you know, because I stay with the regular colors white, blue, you know what I'm saying Just shades of those.
Speaker 2:And then my wife, when she goes, she gets like a lavender and you know just all these other colors I'm like, ah, whatever, like I'm not going to be, like I'm not wearing that. There's some things I won't wear. But I'm like, ah, whatever, it's just another shirt, wear it to work and that type of stuff. But yeah, I do agree with you to kind of I make fun of the skinny jeans because you know, my kids, joaquin, used to wear them and I used to be like man, what's up with that?
Speaker 2:And I was actually giving them a crap about it the other day. He's like don't wear those.
Speaker 1:I was like bruh, I got pictures.
Speaker 2:They're regular jeans.
Speaker 1:They're stretchy pants. Now, we do live in a time right now where I think there's a lot of leeway in the other things, right, like whether you have a beard, length of your beard, what your hairstyle is like. I think that, if anything, the part that is looked unfavorably on is the amount of piercings you have. Yes, that would be something that would hinder you. That would be something that would hinder you. But as far as our conversation goes for ooh, vanity, that's a good question. Right, there Is the excessive. We'll say excessive right, multiple piercings is that vanity? Yes, it's certainly not utility, it's vanity, it's.
Speaker 2:You want attention.
Speaker 1:It would be right, it would have to be. Facial tattoos vanity it's you want attention. It would be right it would have to be Facial tattoos.
Speaker 2:Vanity it requires more attention to that detail. Joaquin here recently was like dad, I think I want to get earrings. I was like all right, whatever you know. And he went to go get them right and I was like no self-respecting man would wear earrings.
Speaker 1:He's like what you have earrings no, I had earrings before. I was self-respecting.
Speaker 2:Then I got some respect. But yeah, I think you're right. Last year I was like you know what? I'm going to grow a mustache just because I've never done it and let me just see what happens. And then I shaved everything else and I just had this mustache and uh and, and I think for my birthday, let the, let you took a picture and posted it. And then I got a call from one of her cousins like what's up with that mustache, why do you look like?
Speaker 1:a cop from the 1970s.
Speaker 2:Oh, you look real masculine. Now it's like, hey, I can't help it, I can't help it. But yeah, uh, she hated, let the hated it. So after a while I was like I was telling, I was telling her cousin, I was like, yeah, you know, I kept it as long as I could. I don't like it that much either, but because she really likes it, wants me to shave it, I think I'm gonna keep it another month or two, just just out of spite, you know, just to say like, yeah, I'm gonna do it when I want to do it.
Speaker 1:But speaking of vanity, I just want all the listeners to know that, as we speak right now, that David is wearing a hat that is very purposefully not bent on the brim. Yeah, very flat bell With a sticker still on it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, flat bell hat.
Speaker 1:And he's wearing sunglasses Because you're ugly.
Speaker 2:Inside Because you're ugly. On the inside of the house, because you're ugly Inside. Because you're ugly On the inside of the house Because you're ugly. I think he's waiting for us to start filming.
Speaker 3:And there's sunshine that is beaming right on me. Sunglasses, get out Vanity.
Speaker 2:Clearly vanity. Take a picture so we can post it. In the sun.
Speaker 1:I'm going to take a picture of this and it will be posted at some point In the sun, In the sun that's going over your head or around you.
Speaker 2:Everywhere, but on you, actually, everywhere on you, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Let me get the sunlight in there too. That's nowhere near you by the way?
Speaker 2:No, it's terrible. So I guess we need to go ahead and border-proof something. So the question is is it important to change your looks? Dlh.
Speaker 1:If we're talking about a standard. See, we came up with this thing and now I'm saying I think that, if I'm being honest, I think utilitarianism is the best approach for everything, because it means that you have to pay more attention to how you look, based on the situation rather than as a general standard.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:Right. So that would be me. I would say that you have to have the opportunity or the ability to change your look based on where you're at and what you want to do.
Speaker 2:So never in a humble look, you're saying never humble.
Speaker 1:No, if you choose to be humble on your own time, when you're not interviewing or at work or whatever, then absolutely. Because again, that's where I'm at, I don't update any of my stuff.
Speaker 2:If we had more time, I would love to discuss the flip side, because I think with women it's completely different, because my wife changes her look at least every couple of years Short hair, long hair, different color hair and my wife gets up in the morning and you see her. The way you see her now is every day. She is never without makeup, she's always put together, she looks like she's going to go interview every day.
Speaker 1:But that's also outside our scope, though, because we came up with these simple three categories. What if they have 12?
Speaker 2:No, that's what I'm saying.
Speaker 1:And I think that's the difference it's like they color their hair all the time. Right, yeah, and different colors, yes, but I have to, so this is utilitarian.
Speaker 3:Well, I think I think there's stems from society, put that pressure on them over time.
Speaker 2:And well, and I think part of it is- you know the the joke is like you're not doing that for me, you're doing it for yourself and other women because it's, I mean, guys are really judgmental. Guys are judgmental just like anybody else, but man, that side is a totally different ballgame.
Speaker 1:Well, I think each gender is, you know, like they judge each other Right To whatever degree.
Speaker 2:We're just more outward about it. We're like man. What's up with those clothes, bro?
Speaker 1:Like in Pulp Fiction.
Speaker 3:Damn. What's up with them clothes?
Speaker 2:They're your clothes, mother.
Speaker 1:This is your shirt from six years ago. I borrowed it and never gave it back.
Speaker 3:Go ahead, Dave. I don't know what I was going to say.
Speaker 1:Are you asking me about the? Yeah, is it important to change your looks?
Speaker 2:Yes, and which one would you go? The vanity, humility or utilitarianism? The third which is it, sir? You got to say it, you got to say it, oh you guys know.
Speaker 1:I'm talking about the you, the you.
Speaker 3:So it is important.
Speaker 2:So you think it is important, so you think it is important.
Speaker 3:Yes, you know, when we started this podcast and kind of thought about the question at the end I was going to say no, but I think, as we talked it out, so the LH convinced you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, wow, you changed your mind. Man, and so because you two, said yes, I'm going to say no, just because.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but you're just like war will z contrarian for the sake of it. Just to just keep it interesting, yeah, but that means that you, I do what you like. I think that you would say utilitarianism yeah, I would.
Speaker 2:I would absolutely. Um, I think it should match. Whatever the event is, whatever the occasion is, um, I, you know, like back to the travel. I think that's that. We need to get back to that, you know. I, I think that's um, it's just you. You're taking other people into consideration. You, if you look put together, you know the guy next to your girl is, you know they just got out of bed and rolled up to the airplane and just looks like trash.
Speaker 2:Yeah, don't do that yeah don't do that, but yeah, I would agree, I would agree, so.
Speaker 1:So I mean, in this case, right as long as if your look is is more in the realm of vanity, but your behavior is not right, then, cool, do your thing. That's more than is required. If you're humble, on your own time, yeah, or whenever it fits the situation, you okay, David Do your thing, but you have to have, I think, the ability to fit appropriately, whatever it is that you're doing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, don't wear a suit to a football game.
Speaker 1:Yes, but even like you're doing where you're talking about having a traveling suit because there is such a thing as a traveling suit from those at those times, um then you, you do that's. That would be in the realm of vanity, right, but you are doing more than so. Utilitarianism, um, or vanity, whatever it is, but but at but definitely meet the minimum of the occasion there you go, so board approved, approved.
Speaker 2:Thank you guys. We appreciate you and, once again, send us a text and then we'll read it on air. Thanks a lot. Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this episode and you'd like to help support the podcast, please share it with others, post about it on social media or leave a rating and review. To catch all the latest from us, you can follow us on Instagram and Twitter. Thanks again, and we'll see you next time.
