Episode 003 - Why Do Men Goad Each Other?

DLH, David, and Jaime discuss the following topics and give their verdict:

1. Why do men goad each other?
2. The Gurian Institute - brain-based, research-driven, powerful deep dive into the minds of boys and girls.
3. Strategies against goading.
4. Verdict

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:14

If by some act of God or by some stroke of luck, you have stumbled upon this broadcast, you are listening to The Chivalry Chronicles with your hosts, DLH, David, and me, Jaime. I hope you're ready because I know we are. So let's get into it.

SPEAKER_03: 0:51

Today, I'm not sure how much I'm going to appreciate this. Jaime and Dave gave me the opportunity to come up with a topic that I wanted to discuss today, and I want to discuss the question of why do men goad each other?

SPEAKER_00: 1:06

Define goad.

SPEAKER_03: 1:07

Well, you know what? I am glad you asked. I mean, not really, but... Every time I do have a question about how we're going to tackle something, even though I do pride myself a little bit on my ability to be a walking thesaurus, so to speak, I always look things up just to make sure that we are tackling it from the right perspective, right, or using the right verbiage or any of that stuff. So goad according to, which dictionary am I using again? Merriam-Webster. Merriam-Webster. Is to incite or rouse as if, with a goad, right? It's not really helpful. You can't define the word with a word. You can't have that word in the definition. Yeah. This is from Oxford Languages. Something that urges or stimulates into action. There you go. Yes, to provoke or annoy. Yeah, something that pains as if by pricking, right? Dave, you're really good at that. Yes. Anyway, so when we talk about that, Why do men goad each other? And we had some conversation about it before we... Some spirited conversation. Some very spirited conversation before we even got... Before we hit the record button, right? Before we hit the record button about this and when it begins and what it looks like and, you know... At what point can you actually tell whether somebody is goading you or is it something else that is taking place? But even when you can determine that it is goading, what is the purpose? Where does it begin? Why does it happen? And then that's where Jaime talked about having read before.

SPEAKER_00: 2:49

Yes. I read The Way of Men almost 15 years ago, maybe like 2010, 2011. I've read it a couple of times and I had to dig it up again. So in there he says, I mean, we're all men here, right? Um, we've done stupid stuff as kids. Uh, remember in the fourth grade, we jumped off portables. Why did we do it? Because we dared each other to do it. And if you didn't do it, then you were seen as weak. Um, the other thing we talked about is I, you know, I have two older brothers. I have a younger brother too. And that's all we ever did. You know, we didn't really call it, um, goading. We, we call it, uh, roasting. Uh, you know, back in the day, we just That's pretty much all we did, from my oldest brother to my older brother. And, you know, DLH is like, when did that start? And I was thinking, well, I mean, about the time you start talking, probably. But I would say probably in eight or nine years old that you just start getting roasted about every little thing about you, things that you're insecure about, things that you didn't even know you could be insecure about. And it's just constant. And, you know, I was telling... I was talking to DLH and David and I said, there's tactics that you can use in those type of things. And we'll get to that in a minute. But I was looking some stuff up and one of the thoughts was that goading was to prepare people in soldiers where they were not in battle to keep them brain sharp. That's one thing that somebody I'd read somewhere that generals would use. And I kind of, you know, I subscribe to that. I think that that's important. I think that's, I think it's a byproduct of getting, you know, mess with, I guess, or made fun of when you're younger. Uh, some people can cave under the pressure of it, but I think if you become better at it, if you become, you know, somebody that can have, um, witty retorts, then, then I think less people will mess with you after that. But I think in situations like that, it's never ending. I mean, I think when I still go home, I still get messed with just about anything.

SPEAKER_03: 5:23

So this is the iron sharpens iron thing?

SPEAKER_00: 5:25

I think it is. I think it is.

SPEAKER_03: 5:27

Is that if I keep messing with you or goading you, then the quicker and better your retorts, the less you get from me in your direction? Correct.

SPEAKER_00: 5:36

No. I think they get harsher. Like, you know, well, for... It depends on the person, right? When I'm talking about it, I'm thinking of my oldest brother who made fun of us and still makes fun of us of everything and anything. So, for example, you know, I went to college. I was the only one at the time when I turned 18 to go to college. So when I came back it was like, oh, here's a college boy. Go plug in the PlayStation, you're the college boy. It's like that type of stuff. And so something that seemingly is good, like, hey, you're going to college, it was bad.

SPEAKER_02: 6:18

Same in the dynamics that I had with my brother. You don't say good job. Good job just doesn't come across good. Like to acknowledge to your brother, uh something and just we're not going to cheer for each other we're going to kind of uh give each exchange jabs which acknowledge the accomplishment which in turn is a great job, but I can't say great job. Same way why we can't apologize sometimes to people in general. It's like, I do feel this guilt. I probably should apologize, but F that. I don't want to apologize. Or I really am proud of this person, but to give this cheesy, oh, that's such a great job. To do that, I think with some... social, maybe even cultural. I don't know if it's even cultural, but in my sense, in my family, we sincerely will back each other. We will sincerely feel each other's accomplishments and feel that success amongst each other and be proud, but we'll internalize that. So the only way we put that out into the world the public space or even among our family is to just throw it out in these jokes or these jabs to like, oh yeah, good job. Good job going to college. Go put it to Nintendo, smartass. You know, it's kind of like

SPEAKER_03: 7:59

that. Or something that acknowledges your accomplishment but then also demeans it at the same time, right? Like I'm proud of you, brother. You know, way to do something that a third of the world does all Something that just has to put in a jab while they're giving you a congratulatory.

SPEAKER_02: 8:18

Absolutely. Do you guys think that it's easy? At what point do you think you finally realize, okay, that's really what they're doing versus, man, what a jackass. Yesterday? You have to really take steps back to realize that's what's really happening.

SPEAKER_00: 8:41

I think My situation was probably different because, like I said, so my oldest brother, we talked about alpha males before, he's your typical alpha male. I'm the middle child, and then there's two younger. But I think my brother, when I got into high school, so I'm 14 or whatever, he kind of pulled me and my other brother aside and said, look, we're brothers. There's nothing that's ever going to come in between us. Um, we're going to back each other up and that's just the way it's going to be. And as a 14 year old hearing that from your brother, you're like, damn, that's cool. But then right after that, he was going to roast you for whatever. But the fact that you heard that you're like, okay,

SPEAKER_02: 9:25

you know where you stood.

SPEAKER_00: 9:26

Yeah. We're here. Yeah. So whenever we were around other people, yeah. You know, cause I was a freshman and he was a senior. Um, you know, it was just like, oh, that's Cruz's little brother. right, to the outside. And so I was somewhat protected, you know, in high school, but around him, he made the most fun of me. You know, when I walked around him and like in the hallways, they're like, I smell fish, you know, like that type of stuff. You know, he wouldn't mess with me in the hallways, but around other people, he'd be like, that's my little brother. Don't mess with him type of stuff. So it was, to me, it was kind of cool that he did that. kind of set the tone. And so you do kind of figure it out, and then later on, it makes more sense.

SPEAKER_02: 10:16

Yeah. Now, DLH, or go ahead, because you do have something. Yeah, this was going to

SPEAKER_03: 10:20

spark that next thought for me, is that I don't think that it, in my opinion, it doesn't come from a place of trying to keep you sharp, right, but rather a way to bond with one another. Now, when we think about... When we think about men and throughout all of history, right, without getting scholarly into all these other things, men have historically not been really good at showing emotion of any kind other than anger, really, right, when we get into that. But how do you show someone that you are proud of them but without getting into some other sort of– mushyness or something like that.

SPEAKER_00: 11:04

Well, 1980 is...

SPEAKER_03: 11:07

You don't do that. Like, now you do. But you can be serious now by, like, the moment that you talked about, right? Like, when you're brothers, and whether you are blood brothers or by choice brothers, right? And you talk about each other, and then there should come a time at some point where you let each other know, like, in all seriousness, I got your back. We're always... Right. We always got each other. Yeah. But it's almost... immediately followed by goading. Yes. Because you can't sit with the discomfort of the mushiness of that feeling. And so you take it into humor. Yes. And that's your... Whether it's defense or whether it's your way of just

SPEAKER_02: 11:46

relating to each other to continue. It's coping mechanism. Yeah, it's almost like that. I get so gushy. That person that... does that nervous laugh when they're presenting? Right, yeah. You know, it's got to come out because it's like bottled up. They know the way it's supposed to happen, but the only way that you can kind of, the ice break is to have that ice breaker, something that eases into the discussion. I don't even think, I think it's something very subtle or very in the, subliminal message in our brains because it's easier to say that joke or to give that icebreaker that then opens the discussion where you may or may not, by the way, be able to squeeze in the message that you have to deliver.

SPEAKER_03: 12:38

Well, that nervous tension, right? If we go back to this graduation... analogy right like something as simple as like no truly i'm proud of you so then you come in and you give a hug and as soon as that hug is over you have the seriousness of that moment

SPEAKER_02: 12:52

yeah

SPEAKER_03: 12:52

that i do truly appreciate your accomplishment now go make something of yourself do something with your life right like that jab has to come immediately after that in order to set things back and not stay in that emotion I think, because it can be uncomfortable for, I think, most of us, and in particular men that don't spend a lot of time in that emotional space. Anyway, and I think that that's how we get along. I was talking about, prior to this in some of the discussion, the Gurian Institute, right, that I... learned a lot from really I went to a parent discussion there were a bunch of parents there and Michael Gurian if you want to look into that I believe that is their website is gurianinstitute.com how do you spell that let me just make sure Gurian is G-U-R-I-A-N

SPEAKER_00: 13:52

don't ask David to spell he was strictly told spelling wasn't a

SPEAKER_03: 13:57

prerequisite yeah so if you look up Gurian G-U-R-I-A-N Institute they talk they talk a lot about the about boys learning and this is all like brain based research driven strategies you know for boys learning and then they also train professionals on how to educate boys and all that other stuff so anyway but when we were talking to him or he was talking to us the the parents that were in this event that we were at, and he talked about the way that boys get along with each other, right? And of course, to give you contrast, he talked about girls. Girls are generally, this was a general blanket statement, by the way, but they're more calm, sedate. You can have them be together in the same space, give them something that is not a dangerous object, art supplies or whatever, and they'll talk while they do the things in a very calm manner. But you turn around and you go and look at the boys and the boys are throwing lawn darts at each other or you know something that's like that yeah always jumping off of roofs or things like that I was like what are you doing because they dare each other for this so One of the funniest things that he said, and he was like, all right, so I want everybody to think about this, in particular the men. He's like, every time you get around fireworks when you're growing up, what do y'all do? And everybody starts laughing. And he was like, see, you can't even say it because you're already busy laughing because you know that in some way, shape, or form, you threw these at each other, right? He's like, yes. And then it's about who can get who, and all of this stuff happens. And then you keep on going until somebody gets injured. And hopefully it's not like a big injury. But it would be something that amounts to a non-serious injury. And what do you do? Do you stop the dangerous behavior? No. You institute a minor rule to try and not have that same thing happen. So don't point the roaming candles at faces anymore.

SPEAKER_00: 15:59

Is that a night code?

SPEAKER_03: 16:03

So we can keep shooting each other, just don't aim at the face. And that's how boys get along. And I think that the that the goading, because if we get back into the goading, this is one of the things that he talked about, right? So if you're playing a soccer game, football game, whatever it is that you're playing, if it's girls playing and somebody gets injured, teammates or something, and they think that you're hurt, there may be the stopping and checking in with you and how are you, you know, like how are you doing actually, right? And getting up. But boys would do more of a... Roll them off the field,

SPEAKER_02: 16:37

we gotta play. You

SPEAKER_03: 16:38

just sort of pass by. Oh yeah. And then there's like, you good? And if you give a thumbs up or any indication that you're good, great, then let's get up and let's keep going. That's all you need to know. And that's it. And I think that's all part, you know, that was the point there too is that That goes into the goading also. I don't need to stop and check on you because I know you. We know each other. You're good. Get up. Stop being a baby.

SPEAKER_02: 17:03

Both of you guys are married and have daughters, right? So with that said, do your daughters... Or have you seen your wife... Is goading a female thing or is it straight up male? I

SPEAKER_00: 17:17

think it's become... Or is it just totally different? In our family, it's become a thing. We mess with each other all the time. And my daughter is really good at it. So when she... Is

SPEAKER_02: 17:28

she doing that with her friends

SPEAKER_00: 17:30

too? I think she is. I can only speculate. But she's really good at it. To where... I think she's probably taking it in because I know she messes with her boyfriend all the time and makes fun of him and that type of stuff. Now, what I would hope is that she understands that, you know, there's levels to goading, right? Like, if I make fun of your shirt, then you can't say, you know, you can't take it three levels up, right? It's just kind of

SPEAKER_02: 17:59

like... Like when she said I was out of pocket. I wasn't like, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 18:04

You were out of pocket. My daughter's 10. And I am pretty positive she does not do this with any of her friends because it's not really within. But she's 10, though. Yeah. So it remains to be seen. But what I will tell you is that when she's at home, I absolutely foster that with her brother. Every time something happens, even if I have to sort of secretly feed her a lime to shoot out to him, and then I help her, like, oh, roasted. You got burned. And then she starts to

SPEAKER_02: 18:37

do that as well. So you're saying that naturally she's not... Turning that route.

SPEAKER_03: 18:42

Right. She doesn't do that. But why do you want her? She doesn't do that on her own. I think, I believe. Are you trying to make her sharper? No. It's more trying to diffuse what I think the tension is. Because Esai is 13, right? And he is hyper competitive. Yeah. And even when there is not a shred of, you would think there's not a shred of competition to be found, he's somehow, some way competing. And And so he will often say things to her where she's like, hey, that hurt my feelings or whatever. And then he's like, oh, you just can't handle the truth. So he's goading, but she's not. And so there's just some times where I try to get her, instead of always taking the L, I try to occasionally get her a

SPEAKER_00: 19:33

W. But I think that's where your son is probably learning the socialization that Maybe with girls you don't because they're not as vicious as, well, they are as vicious, but at that stage, they're not there yet. But it was funny, you were saying that he's hyper competitive. I was listening to this other podcast that said that boys at that age when they're when they when they're looking at someone if they have no expression they take it as as disrespect if they have kind of a mean expression they take it as disrespect if they have a smile they may not but they're all because joaquin is like that when he's 17 now but when he was like 13 14 we'd be walking through target and he's like what is he looking at i was like nobody's looking at you man just keep it moving like he was yeah yeah he's like What are you looking at? Like, what was he looking at, Dad? I was like, he wasn't looking at you, son. Nobody's looking at you. You're not gonna get into the fight. But that's how boys are. And when I heard that, I was like, that's true. Because that's how most boys are. That's how I was at 13, 14. You do look for conflict. You're like... Did you say something? You know, like that type of stuff. And I think it comes from that. Well, it's part of testosterone and all that.

SPEAKER_03: 20:49

Yeah, and I think that, you know, like when I'm doing that, there's multiple things because we always tell my son, right, like no one wins 100% of the time. Now, if he uses any of those things to come in and try and manufacture a win automatically over his, I guess in his view, an innocuous sister, right, a 10-year-old who's not suspecting that she's about to verbally or mentally bounced on by a 13 year old brother and then he comes in for an easy win and So, you know there are some times where

SPEAKER_00: 21:21

that comes with being the oldest it may be

SPEAKER_03: 21:23

right there I think there's some of that that he's entitled to sure as the older brother But then there's some time like just making sure that and he does a pretty good job of not like He doesn't push it too far. There are some times where it's needless, but it's never vicious. Yeah but also I think that sometimes my daughter, this, this may be more individualized, but for her, I feel like sometimes she just needs a win so that she's not always losing against him because sometimes she mentions that as the mentality. Like he always comes first. He always gets this. He always this. And I never. Right. And so sometimes when I'm like, well, I got you, right? Let's help you get this win. And then we do that, and then we get to celebrate that. And then it's sort of like me having a moment with her at the expense of a side, but he can take it.

SPEAKER_00: 22:13

But is this the videographer getting involved between a gazelle and a lion? You know, you're like, gazelle, get out of the way. Here comes the lion. It

SPEAKER_03: 22:21

might be. Yeah. Yeah, I would say so. But if... I think that there are some times where that's okay. Largely, I leave them alone because they need to figure out how to work out these issues with each other. And most of the time, when I interject, it's not a serious one because it has to be in the vein of goading for me to get involved. Otherwise, y'all figure it out, whatever your problem is. But when they are trying to get at each other, but she doesn't have as strong a comeback, so I give her one. And it's all in the... In the nature of goading so that we can roast him at the same time. I'm like, damn, you got burned by your sister.

SPEAKER_02: 23:02

Now, because you know the psychological aspects for many things, do you think it helps her with that? I don't want to say self-esteem because I'm not saying she doesn't have it. But do you think it empowers her to kind of stand up a little bit more, a little bit more fierce when

SPEAKER_03: 23:25

you need to be? Because then some of the times when I do that and then when I have to have a separate discussion with her about something, maybe the way that she's feeling and not as capable in standing up or whatever. And then we may reference something like that. But when I start saying, you know, saying something like this about. So here's a big one, for instance. In the schools that they're in right now, Esai is in seventh grade, so he's a middle schooler. In Eliana's school, they consider fifth grade middle school. Right. And I was like, oh, that's interesting. Okay. But they have this needless argument where as I keep saying, you're not in middle school. And she's like, yes, I am. No, you're not. Yes, I am. And I'm like, what does that matter? Neither one of you dictates what middle school is. The school does. Right. It is what it is. But it doesn't stop him from goading her. You're not a middle schooler. You just wanna be and you're, you know, like all this stuff. And so when I get to talk to her separately and tell her about these other things, you remember that last time you roasted him, like you do have some power in here. If he's messing with you on something that neither one of you can do anything for, Talk to the hand. And I go to old school things, right? Talk to the hand or like whatever it is. What is it? Your mama's so fat? And so all of these things that I tell her, they're like, excuse me? And then it'll be a separate time when I'm somewhere and not getting involved, but I can overhear the discussion that they're having. And when I hear her say, whatever, talk to the hand, and I'm like, there you go. See? And I do think it... it teaches her a little bit of that, like standing up for herself. Yeah. Right. So that she can accept that goading and know how to stand up for herself in the moment. And it starts to also teach a side. You don't just have a, uh, a mat to walk over. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 25:17

Now, when do you guys, when do you guys think that, uh, you and, and even your, your sons, uh, started goading? Like, At what point, like, what do you think is giving us the green light to do that? Like, if I'm trying to think and go back... With your kids or just in general? Yeah, first, let's talk, like, when's the first time you think you participated in GOATing? Us? Yeah, yeah, like, I mean, I wouldn't know. I'd have to be... As far back as I can remember.

SPEAKER_00: 25:46

Yeah. And DLH asked this question. And what was that green light? So, I think... So, we were talking about it, and he said, well, when do you think it started? And I said, well... I want to say as early as seven, eight years old. You participating or you getting goaded? Both. Both. Because it doesn't take too long before you're like, man, I'm getting roasted here. I need to start saying something. Now, I have two stories, right? One, my dad was like... one of the all-time greatest roasters in the history of roasting like he is good at it he makes fun of everyone he makes fun of anything he he is that good so we grew up with that and we saw him do it to my cousins my uncles um his brothers-in-laws that type of stuff and he was really good at it but when he turned it on you it was even worse right so one day he's going he's going to be pretty He said something like, hey, man. He's up. We good. Was that you as eight years old? I was probably like 10. Okay. I was probably like 10. And then I said something like back because I'm taking it right. And then I said something and he gave me this look like. you better think about who you talking to, boy. And I was like, oh, and I got even more mad because I was like, oh, so you can just say whatever you want. So, I mean, so we kind of grew up with that. And I think it's because we saw my dad do it. And then my dad kind of did it, like would roast us a little bit. So then my brother would. And so it just became a thing in our family. And it's just, to me, when you grow up with it, it's just like becomes nature, right? It's just... You just partake in it. So, and then when you go off to college, you take it with you. And so, you know, I know my coworkers are like, hi, man, you're, and even y'all guys said, man, you instigate. Like, that's what you do. And I was like, well, maybe, but it's- No, there ain't no maybe. There ain't no freaking sit here and line us. We're courting you, fool. But I think it's probably, it probably comes from that, is- We did do that all the time to where we got really good at it. And you have to get good at it or you're just gonna take L's all day. Right, like Dan. Like Dan. Yeah. Which gets us to, I'm gonna give you, I'm gonna give you golden 101, right? And ways to combat it. So I was telling David and DLH that there was two ways that I learned, to combat it, right? If you're just getting roasted all day, my technique was to look around the room and find someone who was weaker than I was or somebody very, very obvious And deflect. And deflect. Direct attention to him and then just step back. Yeah. Right? But you have to be quick and you have to be good and you have to be slick about it. Yeah. But you don't

SPEAKER_03: 28:52

just step back. Your tactic is to step, you deflect, you take a quick step

SPEAKER_02: 28:58

back. And then add a little piece. And then

SPEAKER_03: 28:59

after the first comment, you instigate it. You fan the flames in that direction.

SPEAKER_00: 29:04

Well, because you don't want it to come back. Right. Exactly. So that was always, I figured that out at a young age, right? Because my oldest brother was... Man, he was good. And when you're that good, and you have, people will laugh because, I'm gonna laugh because I don't want him looking at me. You see what I'm saying? So the crowd laughs with him at you, and they may not be funny, but they're still gonna laugh because they don't want the attention. So my technique was that. My older brother, who is, I was telling the guys, sweetest guy you'll ever meet, his technique was, If you said whatever about him, he's like, yeah, man, I am. I'm so lame, aren't I? Look at me like, God, you know, right. I'm dumb. And he would just just

SPEAKER_02: 29:51

absorbing

SPEAKER_00: 29:51

it, absorbing it. And I was when I when I caught on, I was like, this sum gun is genius. I was

SPEAKER_03: 29:57

like that. This is the diffusing tactic. And this is where I talk about Dan, right? Yeah. And Dan. Hey, that's our future chairman, sir. Yeah, for our alumni association, he's our current chairman-elect.

SPEAKER_00: 30:10

Future, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 30:11

Right. But anyway, he's somebody that anytime we are sitting in this circle, usually, because whenever we're all together, we do some form of this. Yes, all the time. And he's always the one that has a, like a... boisterous laughter and then nothing. He just laughs at whatever comic comes his way and then nothing. No return, response, no deflection, no nothing. And then sometimes, on occasion, he might say like, yeah, you're right. Or something like that. And he just stops it right in its track.

SPEAKER_02: 30:47

Yeah, usually what ends up happening is whoever's dishing it to him it stops around, there's two remarks and then it kind of just moves on. You move on, you move

SPEAKER_03: 30:58

on, you

SPEAKER_00: 30:58

lose interest.

SPEAKER_03: 30:59

And then either the goading stops altogether or you have to find a new target, right? So that's not fun, but pretty genius on his part. No, it's awesome,

SPEAKER_00: 31:08

but you have to commit to it because I couldn't, I couldn't do that. Like I've tried it and it just doesn't work for me because I don't believe it. Like, I can't say, yeah, I'm dumb. Like, hell no. So here,

SPEAKER_02: 31:20

let me ask you. I'm going to loop in another brother, our current chairman, MT. Because MT doesn't really, I don't see us really goading him that much, if any. So what's his secret? I haven't really thought about that. But what do you think is his secret? Because he kind of... He stays under the radar. Yeah, he stays under the radar. Yeah,

SPEAKER_03: 31:41

he does. I think he vacillates a little bit, if you're asking me. I think most of the time he diffuses it also. Yeah. By, you know... It's almost a dismissal. By a laughter, yes. And then he just dismisses it. Yeah, whatever.

SPEAKER_00: 31:54

And it keeps going. Right. Maybe that's what he's doing. He also absorbs it. Unless... Sometimes he'll say something, too. Unless he has... That's it.

SPEAKER_03: 32:02

But he has to be armed with that. Whatever's there. And then he'll be like, whatever. And then he'll pass it off but that's only on occasion most of the time he's a diffuser he just absorbs it and lets it go or dismisses it right whatever

SPEAKER_00: 32:15

it is David what are your techniques like I've given you the two that I'm

SPEAKER_03: 32:20

You're giving him a lot of credit. Dave has absolutely no technique. He'll just take it?

SPEAKER_00: 32:27

He takes it and fires things

SPEAKER_03: 32:29

off in all

SPEAKER_00: 32:30

directions. See, what I've noticed from David is David doesn't do either technique. He'll just start coming back at you. And

SPEAKER_03: 32:36

whoever laughs the loudest, he takes it all in. Oh, what you laughing at? So the tactic is not to be the loudest laugher because then he'll come in your direction.

SPEAKER_00: 32:47

But I'm giving y'all too much ammo. I'm giving y'all... I'm peeling the curtain back on how I operate things. No, we already knew that. Well, you already know. Yeah, we already knew. No, you didn't. Yeah, we knew. Really? Yeah. I've been saying it forever. We were answering at the same time. That was a synced response. I have y'all

SPEAKER_03: 33:03

pegged already. I already know who's going to do what and what direction it's going to go. And I think early on, if y'all remember back too, I was a little bit of a diffuser. I didn't get into any of that stuff. And then later on, when I recognized the banter, and then I was like, okay, now I know enough to, I think, engage in it. And then I would start to do it. And then now, that's how, now I'm in it so deep, I got... Lupine mad at me this last time. Yeah, he did. That's terrible. I'll not stand for the smirch in his character. I just wanted to be known. It wasn't what I said. It was your agreement to when I said they got him.

SPEAKER_02: 33:44

You know what? That's another thing that this essentially does is whenever you're gouting each other, you're establishing boundaries within that group. That's what it's doing. Or that's another thing that it's doing. It's not necessarily what's in play, but it starts establishing, okay, that's somebody that can take a joke or that's somebody that I can kind of throw a jab. Yeah, how far can I push that or whatever it is. And this is the point that maybe they're not into it or that you really don't. take it from what it's intended to be to now this is the no man's owner. Which

SPEAKER_03: 34:21

leads me to believe, and you know what, they might both be true at the same time. Maybe it is to sharpen some wits. But I do think, it feels to me that the primary... Part of this is is bonding, right? So if we go all the way back to like we constantly talk about tribe and all that stuff When you find a group of people that you know that you can do this with and you can do it anytime You're together. You just pass this around And and you kind of you learn over time what your boundaries are you stay within the boundaries in order to keep it? light-hearted and fun And then we do that and if you ever overstep a boundary then you do go and make that right, right you have a side component conversation and say, yo, man, it wasn't personal. I didn't mean it like that.

SPEAKER_02: 35:03

Yeah. Or whatever it is. Well, Hyman and I had to blow out a couple years ago in that sense. Which one?

SPEAKER_03: 35:15

But I think, but if we're going to, so when we do that, right, because that's kind of, I think that that's every time we're together, especially, well, I mean, we have meetings that way, which is why they run way too long, our alumni association meetings. But then also when we're Yeah. I think that it really is that sort of bonding because we get to pick on each other with maybe qualities or characteristics that we know are, I don't know, either weaker or they stand out and are funny or whatever it is. But it's picking at something with your character.

SPEAKER_00: 36:00

Right.

SPEAKER_03: 36:00

Right. And then all laughing about that and then just sort of passing it around until, you know.

SPEAKER_02: 36:08

So what's your take overall? So pound for pound. you know you weigh the pros and cons of it of goading of goading you weigh all the pros and cons you mean like usefulness or yeah like ultimately is it more beneficial overall or less beneficial obviously it's it's it lands somewhere in between and to different degrees, right? No, we need a determination.

SPEAKER_03: 36:34

We're talking boys here too, right? If we're talking about boy behavior that it seems most common in to do this stuff, then as long as I think if you go into it not mean-spirited, if you stay within what we're saying the spirit of goading is, is to find whatever it is that you can pick on but not take it too far because you're, even if you can't articulate it at the time, if you're using it for bonding

SPEAKER_00: 37:03

or any of that stuff. But I think you have to take it far enough because then how do you know? That's how you figure out the boundary. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03: 37:09

But if you take it that far and then you actually hurt some feelings but you never make amends for that, you risk breaking that bond altogether. So there is a way of bringing it back in together to make amends for that and then keeping it within that goading realm.

SPEAKER_00: 37:25

Yeah, because I know my son and his friends, which they've gone out to Legacy Weekend and camped with us all weekend long, they do that all the time. Part of it is because Joaquin was kind of raised in it again. I mean, my wife and I, we just... We mess with them. We mess with everything. Like, it doesn't matter what it is. And so I think he's taking it on with his buddies. And then when I get around with them, they do it to an extent with me also. Because I know David and I played flag football against them. And the whole game was nothing but, like, back and forth. Back and forth. Talking smack to each other. Going at each other. All that stuff. And to me, it's... I mean, I enjoyed it. Like, I love doing that. Yeah. And the fact that we beat them, like, 18 to 9. I think that

SPEAKER_03: 38:14

says something, too, because when you get a group of, you know, like Joaquin and his friends, right? And if they go to each other, then that tells you something about their dynamic with one another. And if occasionally they turn that on you, you know that they're not going to take it too far because of the respect that they have for you. But the inclusion

SPEAKER_00: 38:32

tells

SPEAKER_03: 38:33

you also their dynamic with you, right? And so if we talk about it in that regard... Highly useful.

SPEAKER_02: 38:40

I think that it is. I totally agree. I think where I think sometimes goading happens can come from a bad place. So here's a dynamic. You enter in a room. You want to assert yourself as the top of the alpha or whatever, the top of the chain, the pecking order for that group. But in your mind, and you may even be doing this not knowing that you're trying to do it, But it comes almost from a sinister thinking of, I'm coming into this room. I have a little bit of fear. I need to assert myself. And that assertiveness becomes more of aggressiveness. So you ultimately become a bully within that group, right? And you can enter and you're leveraging, gouting, but at the same time, you did it from a bad place. So I think from a receiving end, it depends... I guess if we're receiving it, we have to receive it in the sense of, okay, is this person being a bully? Is this person... And bullies, for the most part, have fear, which is why they're bullying, right? But... we can leverage some of the tools like deflection, oh yeah, that's fine, yeah, call me whatever, that's fine, move on. But I think

SPEAKER_03: 40:01

over time, maybe the wit that we learn from each other by doing this, right, and having to be quickly responsive to the things that come in your direction. Anyone who is being conniving or manipulative or in any way trying to strong arm the group for something, whether they want to or not, unless they're highly skilled at doing that, which we start getting into sociopath and psychopathic behavior. And all of those things, yes. But it will become noticeable. And then you'll know.

SPEAKER_02: 40:37

Yeah, it's like oil and water. Yeah, it's just

SPEAKER_03: 40:39

something like they're trying to do what we're doing, but they're not doing what we're doing. Yeah, they're just a little bit on it. Yeah. So I think those things are generally discernible over not even that long a time. You can figure out who that is. But anyway, if we're going back to your question about overall stance on it, I would say... thoroughly enjoy it when we do it at Legacy Weekend. And as long as it doesn't make the meeting go too long, our association meetings go too long, because we've got time afterwards to do that. Yeah. But we do. You just left. I do. That's my diffusion.

SPEAKER_00: 41:19

I got to go. So at the end of the day, is doom and go? to as a, you know, iron sharpens iron, to make them better, to make them wittier, to make them more responsive, or just for fun.

SPEAKER_03: 41:34

No, I think that that's a byproduct of it. But I do think that the primary, my view, is that the primary purpose of it is to relate to one another. without being in your feels, so to speak. You get to keep things very surface. You get to pick on each other, but you do it in a humorous way that keeps that socialization

SPEAKER_00: 41:56

strong. Okay, so last time you took it too far, either one of you, what did you do?

SPEAKER_03: 42:01

Well, just like I said, if someone, we'll just say catches feelings about it, right? Like you say something and maybe you didn't think you were pushing it too far, but in that moment they did. It's usually noticeable. And I think if you make it right by having a side conversation with them. Because I'll tell

SPEAKER_00: 42:23

you what happened in our family. you would go to him even more. And it was relentless and awful. Really? Yes. That's how deep. Oh, now you're getting off. Yeah. And you're all hurt. Oh, you're crying? Oh, I see you crying. Why are you crying? That's exactly how my brother would handle it. My other brother's like, it would be like, you would get it 10 times more. And so, you know, as you grow up, you know, went to college and then you have your own family, like you start, you, you know, with the alumni association, I think you, you do that, what you said, but

SPEAKER_02: 42:59

so, so time out, so time out. So like, cause I'm, I'm curious, is it, is it among men? So among all the brothers, uh, you obviously have a sister, your sister, same, same dynamic, like, Hey, okay. She's crying.

SPEAKER_00: 43:16

She would get it less. And I,

SPEAKER_02: 43:19

And is it because of what we typically put ourselves stereotypically, like boys don't cry, girls, if they cry, you back up or

SPEAKER_00: 43:30

back away? My sister's pretty tough, but she would get some of it too, but not like we got it. Not like me, my older brother, my younger brother. I mean, take for example, we got together last year and that dynamic played out again. because we were all there. Actually, all five of us was there, and it was the first time we'd been together since my daughter's quinceanera, which was, what, seven years ago. Like, it's very few and far in between the times that all five of us were together. So that time, you started seeing it happening, right? And then my oldest brother started picking on my youngest brother. And to me, it's what we were talking about last time, is when you grow up in a family structure, And then everybody leaves that family structure, has their own families. When you come right back to it, you fall right back into place.

SPEAKER_02: 44:21

Because you already kind of, those roles have already been defined. They've been established. They're set in stone.

SPEAKER_03: 44:27

But none of y'all ever said whenever somebody took it too far, I'm assuming then that none of y'all ever said, hey, that's too far. No. because then you automatically become that target. So what I'm hearing too is that you need a hug.

SPEAKER_00: 44:43

Dave is ready here. Dave is ready here for all your hugs. So I tell you, when somebody took it too far and it was usually the time that you figured it out, it's several beers in and roughly 3 to 4 a.m. that you're like, okay, this has gone too far. And then you just break. And then the next day, you know, you kind of just... Pretend like it didn't happen. Get over it. Right, okay. So

SPEAKER_03: 45:14

I think that's going to be a topic for a whole separate episode. Because I think some of the old school family dynamics whenever tension happens is... okay, there's an awkwardness here. We don't know what to do with it. So let's just cease everything that's going on right now. Everybody go to the corner. Yeah, everybody go to your respective corners and then go to sleep. And then the next day we just pretend like nothing happened. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 45:37

So the other thing is... Joy comes in the morning. The other thing is when we were growing up, my mom, you know, it came from your... typical Hispanic family, she would say we couldn't fight with each other because we were brothers. And so what my brothers would do, they'd be like, hymen puncher fighting. And so then you're like, no, we're not. So we knew that we couldn't be mad at each other for a long time because my mom said we couldn't. There's just an old school Mexican idea that your brothers, you know, you shouldn't be fighting. And so you would just get over it. Like and so there's if you do talk to my little brother and there is some kind of like resentment there sometimes when you when you talk about it. Yeah. But to me, it was just like you just kept going. You plowed through and you kept going like it's just.

SPEAKER_03: 46:33

Yeah, that means we need to have a separate episode where we just put Jaime on the couch. No, I'm good. Talk to me about your childhood. It was awesome. It was awesome. I loved it. Yeah, shout out to Pleasant Grove. So now that you know that, if we're going to go back to Dave's question and sum it up, would you agree, even knowing everything you know in family dynamics, would you keep goading? Would you say it was purposeful and was it helpful?

SPEAKER_00: 47:02

Yes. Because the byproduct is helpful. I mean, it helped me immensely. Like, knowing, being sharp about it, knowing what to say, you know, just always having to come back to stuff. Then

SPEAKER_03: 47:16

how come you deflect all the time and then

SPEAKER_00: 47:18

instigate? Because I've become the master at that. And sometimes you do what you're good at. So you're a goading black belt. Yeah, I got that. I got that black belt. So... But I think, you know, the byproduct of it is good. I think when you grow up and you learn a little bit more and you read and you do this and that, you can refine it and make it even better. Like with my kids, I never went as far as my dad did with me or my brothers did with me because that was a little out there. But, you know, and then sometimes they did what I did with my dad. You know, like Joaquin will say something, you're like, son, you better... You better figure out who you're talking to. It just made me think of

SPEAKER_03: 48:02

another tactic. What's that? If you do a lot of reading, and you come out with some witty responses that are higher order, and they're like, I don't understand half of

SPEAKER_02: 48:16

what you just said. If it falls flat, though, it falls flat.

SPEAKER_03: 48:20

Well, but it didn't fall flat for me. You just have to...

SPEAKER_02: 48:24

Well, it didn't fall flat for you. It's

SPEAKER_00: 48:26

back to code switching, man. You can't... You can't be like your PhD.

SPEAKER_02: 48:31

Yeah, but if somebody's grading it, and if nobody understands what you just said. Well, I mean, I guess if the

SPEAKER_03: 48:36

purpose is to keep the goading going, then you're right. It's more of a battle of wits on that. on that level.

SPEAKER_02: 48:42

Yeah, it's going to give you more artillery. Yeah. Or artillery, for sure. No, you're right. You're right. Because if we

SPEAKER_03: 48:47

stay on the same level, then we have to go tit for tat. And who's going to... Yeah,

SPEAKER_02: 48:51

if you just

SPEAKER_03: 48:52

say something that nobody understands... Who's going to have the staying power and the most wit to keep going. Then you're probably going to get roasted right afterwards. The wit stamina. That's right. Yeah. And then that's... Oh, oh, you're going to be a PhD guy over here. Oh, okay. Like George Lopez. I can't remember the... You thought you got rid of it because you said exuberant.

SPEAKER_02: 49:10

Or like... I don't remember... it was George Lopez or one of the comedians where he's like oh you got the target vest on you think you know it all because you got the target vest well basically oh my god no but I have to agree with you two guys I think pound for pound it does do a lot for character establish boundaries friendships relationships and so forth So at the end of the day, yeah, I'm going to

SPEAKER_03: 49:43

put it there. And it's, it's been, it's been great too. I will say, cause I have two brothers. I haven't said that on the podcast, but I have two younger brothers. Um, and even though one of them is a year and a half younger and the other one is eight years younger than me, we're all adults now. And whenever I go back, uh, or if we are getting together for like a holiday, we have whiskey, we smoke a cigar and it is banter. That's it. Goating, goating, goating. And it goes, all around. And more recently, I have a nephew who is also in his 20s. He is not done with the military still at the end of his military service, but is a college graduate and whatever, so he certainly holds his own. But he has also gotten, topic for another time, these really hoity-toity sort of things for cigar things that are totally unnecessary. Some prong, these three needle things that you mess with the tobacco that's in there. Anyway, all of this stuff, and we use that as a point of goading him, like, oh, look at Chulo with all his little toys and all this other stuff. But now he joins that, and he's expanded that circle some. And I truly do enjoy that time.

SPEAKER_00: 51:02

Okay, so the final determination was goading is a good thing?

SPEAKER_02: 51:08

Yeah, it is. And I'm curious what people think. So if they can

SPEAKER_00: 51:11

comment, let us know. Let

SPEAKER_03: 51:13

us know. But I think yes, that would be the ruling is that it is purposeful.

SPEAKER_00: 51:19

So we're going to say board approved. Goading is good. So go out there. Goad your friends. Put in the comments your best one-liners. And then we'll read them on the next podcast. So guys, are we ending it now? Yeah, how can we roast the audience? We'll say some mama jokes next time. All right. So there you go. Take it easy. Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this episode and you'd like to help support the podcast, please share it with others, post about it on social media, or leave a rating and review. To catch all the latest from us, you can follow us on Instagram and Twitter. Thanks again, and we'll see you next time.